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Comments
does anyone know how many copts are in america?
in the world?
so in the world theres max lyk 2 mil?
basketball :D
thats pretty small in the scheme of things.
so in the world theres max lyk 2 mil?
persecution has affected us dearly... :(
by the way, we were the first church ever created, right?
basketball
basketball
basketball :D
by the way, we were the first church ever created, right?
nope.. we were just one of them that never changed! :)
No actually, very few people know of us. Its hard for people to grasp the idea that we aren’t Muslim due to the fact we are from Egypt. This would be a conversation with your typical person…
Person: Oh cool you’re from Egypt! So are you Muslim?
Me: No, I’m orthodox Christian.
Person: Oh interesting, but you’re Muslim right?
Me: No….. I’m Coptic
Person: ohhhh, Coptic, so u celebrate Ramadan?
Me: NO, I’m Christian, NOT Muslim.
Person: it must be hard having to pray 5 times a day…
Me: I wouldn’t know; I’m not Muslim! I’m Coptic orthodox Christian!
Person: Oh right, Christian…, well I’ll see you later Mohammed
Me: My name is mark
Person: yeah that’s what I meant Mustafa, bye
Ugh…. Maybe a little over dramatized, but the American society is just as dense. Or maybe it’s just the people in Brooklyn…
-Mark
No, its not over-dramatized at all. That's EXACTLY the same routine I go through in Europe.
I don't know why, but people seem to think that Jesus Christ was born in Kalamazoo, MI.
We really need to start propagating awareness for our Church. See, for some reason, everyone's understood Greek Orthodox are from Greece and they are Christians. Russian orthodox are from Russia, and they are Christians. But they have a HUGE problem with Egyptian Orthodox from Egypt - they cannot imagine that we are devout Christians. Maybe because we look similar to muslims? I don't know?
But its not just with Americans. Its with a lot of people.
What can do to put our Church in the spotlight?
We really need to start propagating awareness for our Church. See, for some reason, everyone's understood Greek Orthodox are from Greece and they are Christians. Russian orthodox are from Russia, and they are Christians. But they have a HUGE problem with Egyptian Orthodox from Egypt - they cannot imagine that we are devout Christians. Maybe because we look similar to muslims? I don't know?
But its not just with Americans. Its with a lot of people.
What can do to put our Church in the spotlight?
This perspective might be interesting to some.
Although I live in the American South it is no secret to the people I know of my support for the Coptic Church even though I live at least 100 miles from a congregation. Here are some brief impressions I have gotten for others.
First of all my circle of friends both black and white are suspicious of if not openly hostile to the leftist media and the establishment behind it. They do not trust the dominant east/west coast elites and believe them to be atheists, neo-Marxist, or worse.
That being said here are a few comments I recall regarding Copts:
1) There is a general belief that the Copts are an extension of the Early Church.
2) Copts are not Roman Catholic but beyond that people are uncertain of the Orthodox identity.
3) The Coptic Church is persecuted by Islam
4) On the whole people believe the Copts in America are strictly an “ethnic church” which is not interested with including other groups.
5) Some people confuse the Coptic Church with Rastafarians.
There is probably more but I can’t think of it now.
Copts have some presence on Christian media but I find it superficial. Although I think I understand the political situation that guides this there is no outspoken independent figure like Brigitte Gabriel in the face of the Islamic lobby on behalf of the Copts.
Often small Orthodox groups are taken in by liberals who pretend to be for “multiculturalism”. Liberalism as it was constructed a century ago in the US has been co-opted by the neo-Marxists and are not interested in helping conservative Christians of any type; only manipulating them. Oddly enough radical Islam knows this very well and uses the knowledge effectively but many Christians do not
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=276.msg124373#msg124373 date=1292234987]
We really need to start propagating awareness for our Church. See, for some reason, everyone's understood Greek Orthodox are from Greece and they are Christians. Russian orthodox are from Russia, and they are Christians. But they have a HUGE problem with Egyptian Orthodox from Egypt - they cannot imagine that we are devout Christians. Maybe because we look similar to muslims? I don't know?
But its not just with Americans. Its with a lot of people.
What can do to put our Church in the spotlight?
This perspective might be interesting to some.
Although I live in the American South it is no secret to the people I know of my support for the Coptic Church even though I live at least 100 miles from a congregation. Here are some brief impressions I have gotten for others.
First of all my circle of friends both black and white are suspicious of if not openly hostile to the leftist media and the establishment behind it. They do not trust the dominant east/west coast elites and believe them to be atheists, neo-Marxist, or worse.
That being said here are a few comments I recall regarding Copts:
1) There is a general belief that the Copts are an extension of the Early Church.
2) Copts are not Roman Catholic but beyond that people are uncertain of the Orthodox identity.
3) The Coptic Church is persecuted by Islam
4) On the whole people believe the Copts in America are strictly an “ethnic church” which is not interested with including other groups.
5) Some people confuse the Coptic Church with Rastafarians.
There is probably more but I can’t think of it now.
Copts have some presence on Christian media but I find it superficial. Although I think I understand the political situation that guides this there is no outspoken independent figure like Brigitte Gabriel in the face of the Islamic lobby on behalf of the Copts.
Often small Orthodox groups are taken in by liberals who pretend to be for “multiculturalism”. Liberalism as it was constructed a century ago in the US has been co-opted by the neo-Marxists and are not interested in helping conservative Christians of any type; only manipulating them. Oddly enough radical Islam knows this very well and uses the knowledge effectively but many Christians do not
That's precisely why I think we are shooting ourselves in the foot with names like "tasbeha.org" - and sermons that are in Arabic all the time!!
Our clergy need to realise that Coptic Orthodoxy is not just for Egyptian natives.. but for everyone!
The more we attach ourselves closely to arabic, the more we detach and alienate ourselves from the rest of the world. This is dumb!!!
I even heard a video of His Holiness in Arabic and the subtitles were in arabic!!!
This is just dumb.
We were forced to learn arabic by the Islamic invaders and now our Church is forcing it upon us!!!
That's just dumb!!!
That's precisely why I think we are shooting ourselves in the foot with names like "tasbeha.org" - and sermons that are in Arabic all the time!!
Our clergy need to realise that Coptic Orthodoxy is not just for Egyptian natives.. but for everyone!
The more we attach ourselves closely to arabic, the more we detach and alienate ourselves from the rest of the world. This is dumb!!!
I even heard a video of His Holiness in Arabic and the subtitles were in arabic!!!
This is just dumb.
We were forced to learn arabic by the Islamic invaders and now our Church is forcing it upon us!!!
That's just dumb!!!
I'm not completely sure if the church is "forcing" arabic on us but you have to keep in mind that the first-generation Copts who migrated out of Egypt speak arabic as their primary language and it would be very difficult to get rid of it altogether at one shot.
On the other hand, most of the churches I've visited (including my own church) pray in coptic, english, and arabic and a lot of them give english sermons to the english-speaking congregation.
I think it's more important for us to start using coptic more than arabic, along with english, of course.
...but you have to keep in mind that the first-generation Copts who migrated out of Egypt speak arabic as their primary language and it would be very difficult to get rid of it altogether at one shot.
Now think about this: Why would the Coptic Orthodox Church be only interested in serving the 1st generation Copts for? What's wrong with 1st generation NON Copts?? Do you see what I mean? How exactly did you plan to tell people about God if your sermons, ON THE INTERNET, are in Arabic and are even translated in Arabic!!!
What's the point of that!?
Anyway, today, we are not 1st generation Copts - we are 2nd and third here.
Yes, that's good. But the sermon in our Churches within the diaspora should be in the langauge of the country - NOT arabic!!
If Coptic Egyptians are too ignorant to know and understand English when living in the UK/USA, they should just go back and stay in Egypt.
Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it is extremely offensive to be in France, Belgium, Canada, America, Germany, UK and hear sermons from a Coptic Priest in Arabic. That's not right!!!!!
If you miss arabic that much, [Moderated: go] back to Egypt!!!
Now think about this: Why would the Coptic Orthodox Church be only interested in serving the 1st generation Copts for? What's wrong with 1st generation NON Copts?? Do you see what I mean? How exactly did you plan to tell people about God if your sermons, ON THE INTERNET, are in Arabic and are even translated in Arabic!!!
What's the point of that!?
Anyway, today, we are not 1st generation Copts - we are 2nd and third here.
Who said that the church is "only" interested in serving the 1st gen Copts? Like I said, English sermons do exist. I've seen them (as many have as well, I'm sure). If what you're saying is true then that means there are no Coptic churches that pray in English at all and not a single English sermon that's given, neither online nor in Church--which is NOT true.
The only reason that I can think of for an arabic sermon be subtitled in arabic is that it's probably for people with hearing issues. It's like closed-caption.
Well, in that case, you would only be serving one group of the congregation and not the other. Nothing is really fixed here since a country like the US is very diverse and a lot of people speak other languages besides English. Now that's really offensive! Although I agree that everybody should learn English (for those in the US), it's improper to tell someone to go back to their country just because they wish to worship in their own language.
Just because they use Arabic in their prayer doesn't mean that they're "ignorant" in English!
I know many well-educated Copts who speak English better than they do Arabic and yet they prefer to pray in Arabic & Coptic. Nothing wrong with that.
I do not see any problem with someone praying in their native language. Why is that offensive? Are they preventing you from praying in your language? I don't think so!
If you just migrated from any country (Egypt, India, China) to an European country or to the U.S. and do not know that country's language that well since it's your second language, would you like it if someone told you to "**** ***" back to where you came from just because you're NOT praying in that country's native language?
Again, a lot of churches offer two liturgies: one in Arabic, and the other in English. Just attend the one you wish.
Well, in that case, you would only be serving one group of the congregation and not the other. Nothing is really fixed here since a country like the US is very diverse and a lot of people speak other languages besides English.
What Group???
This is what makes my blood boil!! THe fact that you use the word "group" just drives me mad.
This is exactly the problem: Group! There should be no "Arabic Speaking" group, or "English speaking group" - You are residents in the UK / USA!! You HAVE to speak English. Man, i cannot wait for immigration laws to include language tests and to deport those ignorant Copts and muslims who cannot string a word of English or French together to save their lives.
You do not understand this that IT IS EXTREMELY OFFENSIVE for you to come to the UK, or FRANCE and preach in Arabic because people don't speak or understand French or English. This is excruciatingly offensive.
You know how many European people have just entered the Church and left because they don't understand the sermon??
Even at a spiritual level, this is foolish to KEEP ON AND ON speaking in arabic during a sermon! The sermon should never be in Arabic! In fact, i think there's a law against speaking in Arabic in mosques and Churches in some countries DURING the sermon. I'm specifically talking about the sermon. If they CONSISTENTLY use arabic during the sermon, this is offensive. Its ignorant, its humiliating and its a HUGE lack of respect towards the host nation which has welcomed you.
For goodness sake! THE FIRST GIFT GIVEN TO THE APOSTLES WAS THAT OF LANGUAGE!! TO GO AND PREACH THE GOOD NEWS IN FOREIGN LANGUAGES!! What would the Church be like had they only known Aramaic!!!!!! Christianity would have been a small cult! Egypt would never have even been Christian.
When the Apostles started talking in foreign tongues, they were able to cross barriers of culture and communication and build rapports with people and reach out to them. But all you are reaching out to is Egyptians! Therefore, what I'm saying is the Coptic Orthodox Church IS NOT JUST FOR EGYPTIANS!!!!
Prayer is one thing, yet I am talking SPECIFICALLY about the sermon!!!
I am talking about the systematic use of Arabic DURING A SERMON (NOT LITURGY) in a country outside Egypt.
Doing it once, or in a prayer meeting is OK.. but EVERY SUNDAY!?? and then in prayer meetings, the use of Arabic again???
So, in order to actually understand the entire mass and liturgy, we might as well learn Arabic!!!
That is OFFENSIVE!!!!
The need in the USA for a Church with deep roots in history is great. Choking growth by emphasizing Arabic may be counter-productive in the long term but then again I don't know what the leadership is thinking. Perhaps there are good reasons to keep the institution closed and in Egypt...It's a good thing the Dalai Lama did not think that way or otherwise Tibetan Buddhism would be a memory.
It seems to me that the heritage and message of the Coptic Church is really precious. If the leadership cannot see the value of translation as a means of spreading the Word then the fate of the Church is predictible.
The need in the USA for a Church with deep roots in history is great. Choking growth by emphasizing Arabic may be counter-productive in the long term but then again I don't know what the leadership is thinking. Perhaps there are good reasons to keep the institution closed and in Egypt...It's a good thing the Dalai Lama did not think that way or otherwise Tibetan Buddhism would be a memory.
Well said!
However, from what I can see, there are Egyptians living in the west who have a deep apathy towards western culture. They love to maintain their "Egyptian" identities and live in Europe AS IF they were still in Egypt.
When I was young, whilst on vacation time in the UK, I could have spent an entire week speaking only Arabic in the UK..
Church on sundays - Arabic
Going out to central London - Arabic (most of the west end night life is owned by Arabs)
Family - Arabic
Friends going out - Arabic.
England never demanded,at that time, that new immigrants take an english test...and so what happened was Coptic Egyptians just acted and behaved as if they were still in Egypt.
I remember one guy I met in Canada (He didnt speak a word of English nor French) and was in Montreal.
He said to me:" Do u know the difference between Canada and Egypt?"
I said "what?"
He said "KETCHUP in plastic containers!"
"That's it. As far as I am concerned, I'm still in Egypt.", he continued.
The Church should NOT be encouraging nor influencing a lack of respect and integration in the country that has welcomed it!!
Muslims are doing a fine job at that!!
And you wonder why people in the west dont see you as Christians?? Because you remind them of the same arabs that come out of mosques on Fridays.
Zoxasi, we must act out of love. There are many people who can speak English sufficiently in society, but its much easier for them to understand in Arabic. We must not neglect them, nor should we have an attitude of hate towards them. Guys we must take this in peace and and love. If each person were to take an initiative, this wouldn't be as much of a problem. For example, I wish that we can help along with the translation process of HH sermons.
Also there is no reason to stop Arabic sermons. We can just add more English sermons. I know a very blessed priest who has a congregation with some people who prefer Arabic and others who only speak English. He simply gives a shorter sermon and then translates it into Arabic at the end, and I can tell you that his sermons are more full of spirituality than those twice as long as it.
Let us act in the peace and love of Christ. There is no reason for this to be a cause of anger, although something certainly should be done about this.
Please don't take offense to anything I've said and please pray for me.