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Anba Raphael Fighting Protestant Songs

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  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    I lost you qawe. Bishop Raphael is speaking about taraneem that some anonymous young person made while drinking coffee or something similar (which unfortunately this is most often the case for these taraneem). These theologically weak yet popular taraneem are hard to get rid of. How do you see this as developed organically in an Orthodox environment? (Are you employing sarcasm that I am too obtuse to recognize?) Bishop Raphael specifically said they were not developed organically, but rather quite haphazardly without proper training or protocol. Seems to me like that's code for protestant charismatic praise. 
  • qawe
    edited December 2015
    @Remnkemi

    I agree with you regarding the taraneem being pseudo-Protestant even when the authors are technically baptised Orthodox. But the quote @ophadece was referring to about being "hard to get rid of" was in a later part of the video relating to some of the Kiahk madayeh.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Thank you @qawe.. that's exactly what it is @Remnkemi
    Oujai khan ebshois
  • kassiane
    I only watched the first video here, but on another post I was told the song "no don't leave me alone" is part of these "prostestant songs"?  I play it every day and I cannot see anything in the words or tune that would say it is a "protestant" song?  My early background was in the Methodist church in PA-and the hymns we sang at least in those days were anything BUT exuberant and boisterous.  Most sounded like a record on too low of a speed.  But I have lived in the South since 85 and I am well aware of the pentacostal and some Baptist styles or hymns and worship.  It scared the crap out of me the first time I heard it-looked and sounded like they were either having seizures or in the grip of some wild sexual escatasy!  Anyway,  the song I mentioned does not any way resemble any kind of pentacostal style protestant hymns  that I am familiar with.   This song has given me comfort and if it offends God in some way?-asking him to guide me and stay with me and declaring I am nothing without Him,etc, then apparently I am barking up an entirely  wrong tree-AGAIN!
  • qawe
    edited January 2016
    @kassiane

    Pentecostalism has its roots in the Second Great Awakening and Methodism (revivalistic Protestantism).  The two are linked.  The former is a later and more extreme development of the latter.

    The song does not "offend God".  And you are right it is not Pentecostal style.  It seems to be Methodist style.  But I don't think it is Orthodox style.  I don't doubt that it has given you comfort, but that is not the main aim of worship.  People are free to listen to what they like in their free time under the guidance of their confession father, but it should not be brought into our corporate worship.

    Again, I want to stress that perhaps not everyone will agree with me regarding this song.  It has been around for a looooong time and is considered a "classic".  Our priority should be to oppose the truly Pentecostal hymns that have entered since the 1990s, such as Hillsong.
  • kassiane
    Ok.  But exactly what does this song say that would NOT be considered appropriate in Coptic worship?  I am truly trying to understand.  It praises God and asks him to stay with us and guide us in His way.  And it does not have one of those loud holy roller type of tempo or anything .  What about it is NOT Coptic?   Does God not WANT us to be comforted, especially when we are praising Him and asking for help and guidance?!
  • qawe
    Of course, this is a topic that needs true spiritual discernment.  It's not just about making a list of problems in the song.  But nonetheless, I'll brainstorm some here:
    - romantic/emotional tune
    - no sense of corporate worship, focus solely on "me and Jesus"
    - the 5th verse, "don't leave me alone in the midst of this world but come quickly O Lord and take me to heaven".  This is a bizarre statement to make while worshipping - isn't the Divine Liturgy heaven on earth?!  As Christians we are called to be in the world but not of the world.  So this is our calling, but the song calls us to avoid this and escape into some ethereal love relationship with Jesus!
    - the song is missing a lot of important theology in regard to the incarnation, trinity and sacraments.  We are left with something not too different from a love song.

    btw my point is not just that it's non-Coptic, but that it's non-Orthodox.  You will hear it sung in almost every Coptic Church, but since you say you're Eastern Orthodox, try showing it to any EO clergyman and ask him about it.  You will probably hear a similar response to mine.
  • kassiane
    OK.  Thanks. 
  • kassiane
    PS.  I'm still trying to put everything into proper perspective.  I like what you said about it being a love song.  It is a long song to God.  I was not advocating that it be sung in church during liturgy it's something I play at home to give me comfort.  I have a rare systemic soil fungus infestation that was misdiagnosed for almost 3 years.  It has not been responsive to medicines  or herbal treatments and will most likely be fatal.  I am in pain most of the time and alone and it has been hard to deal with.  I was raised protestant though I NEVER agreed with any of the denominations I was exposed to and was away from ALL organized religion for several decades.  I did convert to Eastern Orthodox and did not realize they were not in communion with the Coptic branch until recently.  From what I have been observing, most Copts seem to be more devout and sincere in their faith.  I would NEVER even consider any protestant denominations again and maybe I am one who was not meant to be a member of ANY one faith.  I'm just trying to sort everything out-the "personal relationship with Jesus" thing IS very evangelical and many whom I know use it ad nauseum.  But on the other hand, I believe there should be SOME relationship between us and God -apart from strictly group worship.  Does the Coptic faith NOT encourage this?
  • qawe
    @kassiane

    "Existentialism, a call for individual freedom, is a natural product of struggle between two extreme attitudes; the literal church life that Europe practiced especially in the middle ages and the extreme liberal church life that many western churches live today. In the literal church life the believer loses his personality, for the church community uses him as a tool. He is the subject to the church laws and practices worship without understanding, ignoring his personal relation with God. Through the liberal church life, every believer understands the holy Bible and practices worship individually, ignoring the church tradition, order and concepts. The Coptic Church believes in the moderate way and refuses the extremists ways. It is a conservative traditional church which holds fast the common church order and at the same time insists on the personal relationship with God. Orthodoxy refuses individualism but embraces “personalism” together with common attitudes, therefore believers feel spiritual freedom through the lovely bond of the community. Existentialism can find no place in the hearts of the true believers of the Coptic Church."

    From the above, there should definitely be some relationship between us and God.  In the Coptic Church, believers use the Agpeya (Horologion) for their prayers in their own room at home.  They then springboard off this into extemporaneous prayers.  Both forms of prayer are "personal", we should not pray pre-written prayers in a mechanical or formalistic/tick-a-box manner, but should really put our hearts into them.  Extemporaneous prayers are normally said after the Agpeya prayers, so that the two forms of prayer are not divorced from one another.  Otherwise, it can lead to a kind of schizophrenia.  Praying one way with the Church and another way by yourself.  Eventually you will prefer one and reject the other.

    I think the main concern with listening to these kinds of songs, is when youth listen to them, like them more than the liturgical hymns, and therefore start to demand (successfully) their introduction into corporate worship.  Your situation is completely different and altogether exceptional.  I just didn't want you to think that this is a proper Orthodox hymn, because it's not.  May God grant you healing and comfort.
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    @kassiane
    "I'm just trying to sort everything out-the "personal relationship with Jesus" thing IS very evangelical and many whom I know use it ad nauseum.  But on the other hand, I believe there should be SOME relationship between us and God -apart from strictly group worship.  Does the Coptic faith NOT encourage this?"

    The problem we know face in the Coptic Church is people understand "personal relationship with Jesus" in that very evangelical form. Just yesterday, I heard of a Sunday School servant argue with another servant saying (and I'm paraphrasing) her cousin went to a Protestant church and her relationship with Jesus is so much closer than it ever was in the Coptic Church. In essence, the servant was arguing that Coptic spirituality is inferior to Protestant, evangelical "personal relationship with Jesus". 

    The problem lies in the fact that Copts are looking at "personal relationship with Jesus" as an emotional connection when in reality it is really deism, Nestorianism and gnosticism. You will be hard pressed to hear the phrase "personal relationship with Christ" and very rarely will you hear "personal relationship with God." What the phrase "personal relationship with Jesus" really says is
    1. God is so far away that we can't have a personal relationship with God so we have to have a relationship with the man Jesus.
    2. Jesus and Christ are two different people. Christ is the theological or divine personality while Jesus is the human personality. 
    3. In order to fully connect to God, one needs a special, exclusive, secretive knowledge of God and then a special connection is given to you that can't be given to the masses. This is no different than what the first century gnostics stated.  Corporate worship is antithetical to a personal worship. They don't want corporate worship because they want an exclusive (emotional) connection to God. 

    I want to stress this last point. To subconsciously believe one must have an exclusive, emotional connection to God is completely against everything God has done and said in the scriptures. No scripture is subject to private interpretation (2 Pet 1:20). When Zebedee's wife wanted to make a special, personal connection for her sons, Christ didn't give in (Mat 20:20). God gave His Only Son for the whole world, not for an individual or a selective group. (I'm sure you've read Fr Schmemann's For the Life of the World). God didn't give His Only Son to death so he can make a utopian, teddybear, rainbow world for us. In the world we will have tribulation. (John 16:33) He never promised to remove hardships or darkness or loneliness in this world. This will only happen at the eschaton. 

    The problem with "Don't leave me alone" and songs like it is that while it has some Orthodox concepts of repentance and heaven, it's only half the story. David expressed feelings of hardship, darkness or loneliness, but every time he did, he continued to show how God has vindicated him, redeemed him, shone up those in Sheol, lifted him up, etc. No psalm ever ends speaking about emotions only and no psalm ever ends without praising and describing God's divinity for all mankind. 

    What people need to understand is that there is a "personal relationship with Jesus" in Orthodoxy. It is called theosis. God became man so man can become God. God personally made me something more than a body with raging emotions. And he did it for everyone. That is why corporate worship cannot be divorced from personal worship as qawe said. I respond to this personal calling to come to him and become more than dying, emotional flesh by crucifying my dying, emotional flesh every day and growing a spiritual body focused on who God is and not what he does for me. 
  • BeeKay
    +100 :)
  • kassiane

    Thanks.  I think that I am apparently one who should not be a member of any particular faith.  For my entire 66 years of life I have been trying to "find God" and find a faith or church where I "fit in."  And my earliest memory of the protestant church was hiding under the covers every Sunday at around 4 years of age saying I was sick and my mother dragging me out of bed and forcing me to go to Sunday.  The brick Methodist church loomed over me in my memory and for some reason the thought of entering it always filled me with dread!   And I know for certain I would gladly drop dead before I ever went to the pentacostal  prosperity doctrine type churches-it literally makes me SICK when I hear them say they pray for things like their teams to win a football game or for nice weather so they can attend events like a prom or the money to buy a fancy car,etc.  THAT kind of "personal relationship with Jesus" is ridiculous in my viewpoint.  Many of them actually believe when they die they can personally order all kinds of "goodies" in heaven-at least they SAY they do! 


    But, on the other hand, I DO want to feel that I have a close "friend" in God-someone that loves me and will always be there for me.  Much of this is probably because I came from a broken home and never really had a "family."  Group is good but we are also INDIVIDUALS within a group and I don't want to believe that we have no worth or value as our individual selves-that just seems too cold and unfeeling .  I just basically don't fit in ANY where with religion and that is probably the reason from young adulthood until my early 60s I did not attend churches or identify myself with any one faith.  Maybe some of us are just doomed to be Godless heathens and go to hell when we die.  I really think if I was 20 years younger and in better health I would actually try to find a cave and go live in it!  The poem "stranger" by Pope Shenouda 111 touched my heart so much-I listen to the song version of it daily and that is probably not a good thing or maybe a protestant thing also, but I can identify with it and I will continue to listen to it.  At this point in my life I really don't think it matters anymore.  Thanks for listening to me.

  • qawe
    @kassiane

    "But, on the other hand, I DO want to feel that I have a close "friend" in God-someone that loves me and will always be there for me.  Much of this is probably because I came from a broken home and never really had a "family."  Group is good but we are also INDIVIDUALS within a group and I don't want to believe that we have no worth or value as our individual selves-that just seems too cold and unfeeling"

    None of what you write is objectionable, it's just a question of maintaining a proper balance.  Did you read the quote by Fr Tadros Yacoub Malaty I wrote in my previous post?

    I would like to repeat what I said in my post above:
    "the main concern with listening to these kinds of songs, is when youth listen to them, like them more than the liturgical hymns, and therefore start to demand (successfully) their introduction into corporate worship.  Your situation is completely different and altogether exceptional.  I just didn't want you to think that this is a proper Orthodox hymn, because it's not.  May God grant you healing and comfort."
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