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Comments
Why are you confused?
What I would like to say is that instead of debating who the best, or most honest candidate is, we can just all pray that God inclines, or moves, our heart and mind to vote for the right candidate when election day comes around - to vote for the candidate who will glorify His name, the candidate who will best represent Christians, the candidate who will carry out God's will. Given that only God knows the future, He is the only one that knows which candidate will glorify His name, and do the better job. Therefore, if we all sincerely pray for this issue, I am sure God will guide and direct us to choose the right candidate. May His will always proceed over ours!
Please remember me in your prayers.
Beshoy
Yes they are!BUT YOU HAVE NOT PRESENTED ANY!Just the same old same old.Frankly Im tired of hearing the garbage.You get angry because I dont acept your allegations at face value{just like you do with those who dont accept your religion}and you resort to belittling the American people.I believe your basically an intolerent person who gets easily frustrated when he doesnt get his way.
Just as many protestants dont believe Orthodoxy to be a bona fide branch of the christian faith.How sad we christians are so full of pride that we denigrate and bellittle our fellow believers and claim we are the only ones with the truth.God forgive this pride of the Devil!
I thank you for your blunt comments because now I know where your coming from.I feel sory for you and hope God will one day deliever you from your hatred of Americans{and all people who disagree with you}.
Yes I agree.Im sick of this debate and the need for me to constantly defend my christian brother George Bush{the one you said wasnt a christian since you know his heart}and the American people whom it appears much of the world hates.
Thats why were the only world superpower?Thats why immigrants from all over the world so eagerly seek to come to this great country.Please dont make me laugh! ;D ;D :(
It has made me angry as well and I have reacted in a harsh manner.But realize this,when a person speaks evil of ones country{and president} and the faith he holds so dear;friction and hard feelings are bound to follow.Thats why countless wars and acts of immeasurable barbarity have been commited in the Name of God and country.If only we could learn to live in peace and put away our pride.
(sorry, i really couldnt resist ;D)
That is pretty funny...lol...Your right,it is getting a little heavy on this thread.
lets put our pride aside, and lets keep this forum filled with Christian discussions, and Christian values. I ask that we stop this senseless debate as it only angers all of us further and further, and the cylce will never stop. we all have our political and social opinions, and some differences will always exist. so rather than wasting our time arguing these differences, why don't we discuss subjects we agree upon, or at least debate them in a constructive and respectful manner.
as for this Church vs. Church discussions, my brothers, please refrain from bringing them up. they are truly unnecessary, and it hurts me to read these words that are being said. As our Pope once said, (rephrased), "while the theologians are all debating the different aspects of theology, the simple people are going to heaven." in the same spirit, lets stop criticizing the different denominations, and focus on our own faith and spreading the Word. What matters is that one stays strong in his or her own faith, and struggles and toils for our Lord Jesus Christ until his or her very last breath. Let Him do the judging and deciding on which Church is true, and on who will receive His GIFT of salvation. For at the end of the day, NONE of us are worthy of the blood He shed for us.
Forgive me if I have offended anyone.
Beshoy
That is truly beautiful.God is speaking through you.Thank you.
I do have a slight correction to make on your view of American Church history. The Catholic Church was in this place before the United States was even a nation, so there is no right to claim the United States a 'protestant nation.' In the same light, Orthodoxy also existed in Alaska and down to the west coast of Canada and the US, very early on in American history. Therefore the United States has been multi-Christian, as well as multi-religious ever since its existence. So, no religion, and no denomination can claim this country as solely their own....unless the Native Americans religions wish to throw there hat in this debate.
" The Catholic Church was in this place before the United States was even a nation, so there is no right to claim the United States a 'protestant nation.' In the same light, Orthodoxy also existed in Alaska and down to the west coast of Canada and the US, very early on in American history. Therefore the United States has been multi-Christian, as well as multi-religious ever since its existence. So, no religion, and no denomination can claim this country as solely their own....unless the Native Americans religions wish to throw there hat in this debate."
Actually, i really feel that this country was founded on protestant beliefs. Puritan beliefs and calvanism to be exact. These people came here because they were escaping religious persecution. White Anglo-Saxon Protestants are the people that created the government and society. There may have been explorers of different faiths but they had almost nothing to do with the shaping of our nation. That doesn't mean that they are not important. Also, orthodoxy existed in Alaska because the united states purchased alaska from Russia. I don't think that any one religion should be making claims to the U.S, but this country WAS founded on Protestant beliefs and we should never ignore the values of our forefathers. GB.[tr][/tr]
If by forefathers you mean those white guys who only gave rights to other white male landowners, then yes, they did make a new country out of the colonies. But they had plenty of help from Catholic France. Which values do you consider worth keeping: the value that people who weren't white are 3/5th human, the value that women shouldn't vote, the value that only their brand of Christianity should be tolerated, or some other value?
I agree, this country was created by people who happened to be Puritan and Calvinist, but so what, they were also racist and bigoted. If you want to get really technical, the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence country has no real legal authority, since the majority of people living in the colonies were not allowed to vote, and had the Independence forced on them.
;D ;D ;D
Where did you get that wild number?The USA has lost around 1000 soldiers,while Iraqi estimates{during the bombing;during the actual war}are between 30,000 and 60,000,of which the vast majority were Saddam loyalists{murders,rapists and torturers-the Republican Guard}and Muslim terrorists{Jihadists}.Where in the world would you come up with a number like 1 million casualties a year in Iraq?You know I really like you Mike,and I dont want to offend you in any way,so please dont take this the wrong way,but really your not being fair to president Bush and your letting your blind hatred of the man get the best of you.That number is simply not the truth,not even close.I simply cant understand what the man ever did to you personally that would make you hate him so much and that you would rather see people murdered,raped, and tortured by a crazy lunatic like Saddam{all of which can be verified by many news agencies}instead of being allowed to vote ,live lawfully,and choose their own destiny.Canada didnt help the people of Iraq,you didnt help the people of Iraq,{I didnt help the people of Iraq}but George Bush did help them.No matter what your news media says there are many,many people{Ive seen them interveiwed} who are very glad to be free of an evil man like Saddam.The only ones you see on the BBC or Canadian news are the ungrateful Muslims who hate all christians{including orthodox}and hate America because it stands for christian ideals.And you are supporting them!I just cant imagine how you can do such a thing!Bush at his worst is nothing compared to Saddam and his government.If you truly cant see that ,I really dont know what to say!Is it because you dont like protestants that you dont like Bush?You mentioned something about his being a protestant before.I know protestants gave you a hard time but really you should realize that orthodox christians have also persecuted evangelical christians as well.In Ethiopia they have actually killed evangelicals and they actively,on a daily basis persecute "protestant"christians.In Greece they do the same thing even with the active consent of the government.Besides persecuting evangelical christians the Orthodox church in Russia has had a long and well documented history of killing and persecuting Jews{for hundreds of years}.So you see, what you suffered is relatively minor in comparison.You need to forgive those who have wrongfully mistreated you just as we must forgive those who have killed and persecuted us{evangelicals}.Please dont hate Bush because he is a protestant and please dont believe everthing you hear in the media about the president,since much of it is outright propaganda.There is certainly not a million people dying in Iraq every year.Thats just not true!I have heard many things in the muslim media against coptic christianity{one example being some story about what they call the coptic priesthood "the cadilac clergy",some nonsense about how they are all driving cadillacs and living rich and extravagant lifestyles,especially the Pope}but I certainly dont believe all that anti-coptic garbage that they throw out there.Its just a pack of lies by people who hate Copts!And yet you believe and pass on to others every evil report about George Bush,most which dont even have a shred of evidence to support their false allegations.We have to be fair!You accused me of judging yet you have no problem judging Bush on a daily basis.Come on, I know your more fair and just than that;you seem to be a very commited christian and also a very nice person.All I ask is that you give Bush a fair chance and dont hold him to a higher standerd than what you would do for other world leaders.You asked me why I liked Bush so much and why I would so strongly defend him.Well the answer is not so much that I like Bush but rather I cant stand for people to lie and bear false witness against another christian brother,whether its a coptic brother or a protestant brother.I hope I have not offended you in any way but I hope I have caused you to think a little more deeply on this subject.
May God richly bless you my Coptic friend!
Hey JFranklin.
I am shocked by your reply...I am sorry if I offeneded you in anyway and I hope you forgive me. I am a Canadian citizen, I have nothing to do with this election. I can only see the elections from outsides, and I make a fair judgememnt based on that. When I mentioned that he was Protestant I mean that you would vote for a Protestant candidate ofcourse and if there was a Coptic candidate most of the people on this website would probably vote for him.
I will tell you my point of view of both leaders; George Bush was given a chance in the last Presidential debate to flat out say that he would only appoint Supreme Court judges who would over turn Roe v. Wade and make abortion rights a state matter again, opening the way for the banning of abortion on a state by state manner. George Bush REFUSED to make a statement in that regard. How can a ''pro-life'' voter support a man who does NOT state support for the issues so seemingly dear to such a voter?
When George Bush had a chance on a national platform to be a leader on this great moral issue of abortion…GEORGE BUSH WAFFLED!! GEORGE BUSH WEASELED AND FLOPPED ON THE ABORTION ISSUE!! He does NOT deserve the support of anyone who holds such an issue dear to their heart.
If on the other hand, "pro-life" people believe that George Bush really WILL be applying an anti Roe V. Wade litmus test to Supreme Court judges, they must believe that Bush LIED during the debate. In fact they are BASING their "pro-life" support of Bush on the fact that he LIED during the debate.
Supporting a candidate for President BECAUSE HE LIED TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE is an amazing turn around. Bill Clinton probably wishes he could run as a Republican in this "backwards world" Presidential race.
Also, if President Bush IS a Christian leader appointed by God then why didn't he do anything about the banning of prayer in public schools or the banning of Religion classes. See, not everyone that says I am a Christian and I'm pro-life actually is, because words in our society today are not worth much anymore and you would be amazed by how many lies a man hears in a day.
As for Kerry, well he's a problem too:
Q: Some Catholic archbishops said that it would be a sin to vote for a candidate like you because you support a woman's right to choose an abortion and unlimited stem-cell research. What is your reaction to that?
Kerry's answer: I completely respect their views. I am a Catholic. And I grew up learning how to respect those views. But I disagree with them, as do many. I can't legislate or transfer to another American citizen my article of faith. What is an article of faith for me is not something that I can legislate on somebody who doesn't share that article of faith. I believe that choice is a woman's choice. It's between a woman, God and her doctor. That's why I support that. I will not allow somebody to come in and change Roe v. Wade.
Source: Third Bush-Kerry debate, in Tempe AZ Oct 13, 2004
Well I think in a situation like this, I dunno what to be done....One calls himself pro-life and was president but did nothing about abortion and the other one is a dumbbum....
I do not support either candidates!
Oh by the way, when I said a million I meant worst thing that could be...and in that post I WAS in support of Bush...and as for what Copt Clergy men are called is very untrue and very unfair, Copt Clergy men get the worst of everything, they have the least of everyone and such a lie is very offending and I am very sensitive to anybody even MENTIONING anything mean or false about my Priest or the Pope or any of our respected holy Clergy.
God Bless.
Mike
He actually said he would appoint judges that would only make rulings according to the constitution,unlike the anti- God liberal revisionist judges who make laws based on their own personal idealogies and belief system.Those who know a little bit about our justice system know that what he was saying in effect{even liberal pundits acknowledge this}was that he would appoint conservative judges,ie. those most likely to be opposed to abortion and other revisionist rulings{same sex marriage,etc}.He never said he would appoint judges who would support abortion rights or judges who would turn a blind eye to the rights of the unborn.Rather what he did was to skillfully evade a question that was intended to damage him politically by giving a neutral answer.Iwould have done the same thing as any person who has a shred of intelligence.Why would he seek to alienate an entire political bloc of voters by answering in the affirmative.That would be political suicide and only a fool would responded in such a manner!He didnt lie!He gave a nuetral answer,but an answer that revealed he would not appoint liberal judges but only those who uphold a strict interpretation of the constitution.Contrary to what others have implied, Bush has many times stated that he is against abortion.He signed into law the partial birth abortion ban{which Kerry did not support}.Over and over he has publicly stated he is pro-life.What more do you want the man to do to prove he is pro-life?To say he lied when he gave a neutral{and lightly veiled}answer is false.
You didnt offend me, I was just surprised at the number of casulties you quoted and only wanted to reason with you,to perhaps cause you to rethink your position.Since I know you are a honest and sincere person I knew we could discuss the subject in some depth,hopefully without rancour or bitterness.I respect your views and always hold them in high regard.I was in no way trying to insult you or cause hard feelings and you have certainly not evoked any hard feelings on my part.
As I stated previously, it was most certainly a bunch of demonic Muslim lying garbage!Yet the sad truth of the matter is that many christians are spreading the same demon-spawned trash about my christian brother George Bush,claiming to be speaking truth when in reality their accusations contain very little truth indeed!Many{I am not speaking about you} are so blinded by irrational hatred they cannot even percieve truth anymore!If you disagree with them you are accused of anti-intellectualism or worse yet,ridiculed and slandered{in my anger I perhaps have done a little slandering myself}.How sad!The good brother Beshoy spoke truly the words of God but once again I am having a hard time obeying the precepts of my Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!O LORD God help me obey your word!
Great post!I love it!Thank you for showing some respect to your poor protestant brethren...lol.... :D :) ;)
Oh you mean the same values that catholic France{or rather I should say secular humanist,remember the french revolution?}espoused while they were busy chopping off the heads of the French aristocracy?...lol...Go study your history.Remember how the French catholics slaughtered and murdered the protestant Hugenouts,every man,woman,and child?They were quite religiously tolerant werent they?The Spanish catholics were very kind and gentle with the native populations werent they.They killed millions and enslaved the rest.The record of the protestants{worldwide}is quite gentle by comparison,dont you agree?
As was most of the world at that time regardless of race or religion.But the fact remains; the catholics of Europe have seldom been surpassed in both racism and bigotry.
I disagree with your debate technique Franklin. When shown that the US isn't and has never been perfect, and that our founding fathers weren't saints, you don't try to prove your point. Instead you show other countries faults. I agree other countries have done bad things historically as well, but these countries aren't claiming to espouse Christian or any other religious view. Some in the US are saying that this country is a Judeo-Christian country, well prove it. At most one could show that some of the founding fathers were Deists or Theists, but there is no proof that any of them advocated government supported protestantism. In fact, subsiquent amendments guaranteed a separate religion/state relationship.
As far as racism in Europe, yes they were slave owners, but they ended slavery first, infact the Pope at Rome condemned slavery long before Spain and Portugal finally stopped the practice.
If you read your first statement, even you stated that the US was supported by "secular-humanist" France, which means this isn't a Christian country, although I and probably you would like it to be.
The support they recieved was nominal at best{Lafyette,a few troops,supplies etc.}.You make it seem that America needed desperately the aid provided by France,and while the aid was greatly appreciated,the American effort was not in as dire a situation as you make out.I say once again read your history books carefully.And also remember that France was at war with Great Britain and the American conflict helped them {perhaps even more so}as well as it helped the colonies.More English troops in America,less of a threat to the European theatre.
You misunderstand my point.I was in no way defending racism or bigotry but simply pointing out that the same sinful condition was universal and prevalent in every culture of the day.A simple counter statement in response to your assertation that the puritan founding fathers were some how worse human beings than others of the different creeds and cultures of their time.The debating technique you refer to is the one you use when refering to the war in Iraq.Instead of facing the issue head on, you deftly evade the real heart of the subject by shifting our focus to other trouble spots around the world.Something like this:"If the USA is interested in toppling dictators why doesnt America solve the situation in North Korea,Iran,or even the Sudan,etc.etc."?It is a very clever technique to be sure, but one that doesnt actually deal with the matter at hand.
Sure they were!Catholic Spain conquered and enslaved the New World in the name of God{ under the auspice of the Roman Catholic Church}.There are many other examples.
Jefferson was so anti-Christian he re-wrote the Bible to make it fit secular humanism, see: http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/
If Layfette no-showed, Washington would not have been the hero he was. Remember von Stueben, from Germany? Without his training, the US Army would never have learned to fight together.
You misunderstand my point.I was in no way defending racism or bigotry but simply pointing out that the same sinful condition was universal and prevalent in every culture of the day.A simple counter statement in response to your assertation that the puritan founding fathers were some how worse human beings than others of the different creeds and cultures of their time.
I didn't state they were worse, but if they are claiming to be Christians, as you think they were, then they are held to a higher standard. Being just as good as a bunch of racists, isn't something to be applauded.
Catholic Spain conquered and enslaved the New World in the name of God
And they were as bad as Puritan colonists. And they were condemned for it, repeatedly.