Agape, please do not persist in your ignorance; listen and learn. One thing that I cannot tolerate is those who know very little acting like they know very much, and in so doing, opposing the express teaching of the Church.
A)
Martin Luther is not our church father.
You are comitting a straw man fallacy. I did not mention Martin Luther. You are obviously quite ignorant of patristics: St. Ireneous of Lyons and St. Hippolytus are "Western Fathers", and they are "our Church Fathers", and there are many other "Western Fathers" like them who are "our Church Fathers".
Got it?
B)
Again no! no false assertions!
Again yes! Enough ignorance, and address the arguments! Ok?!
Clement of Alexandria has clearly argued in his Stromateis that Christ preached in hell not only to the old testament righteous, but also to the Gentiles who lived outside the true faith.
i) You are contradicting yourself. If St. Clement taught that of the Jews only the righteous were given the opportunity to be saved, then obviously not all those in hades were saved, since you admit that at the very least the unrighteous Jews were hence not saved.
ii) Before you comment on St. Clement, it would be prudent to actually read what he says, as opposed to misrepresenting him just to support your heteredox position. St. Clement clearly states that of the gentiles, only the righteous were saved i.e. those who lived righteously according to their own law and philosophy. Here is a direct quotation from St Clement's Stromata:
"For to those who were righteous according to the law, faith was wanting. Wherefore also the Lord, in healing them, said, "Thy faith hath saved thee." But to those that were righteous according to philosophy, not only faith in the Lord, but also the abandonment of idolatry, were necessary. Straightway, on the revelation of the truth, they also repented of their previous conduct." (Book 6 Chapter 6)
C)
no heresy around here.
I will surely educate you my ignorant friend, and put you in your place. To further crush your credibility as a spokesperson for what is Orthodox, I will now go on to prove that you are directly opposing the teaching of the Church as represented by her Orthodox heriarchs (i.e. figures who have the authority to proclaim Orthodoxy) and her Liturgical rites:
Here is what His Holiness Pope Shenouda III has to say on the issue:
From page 68 of his book Doctrinal Theology:
The Lord Christ went down to hades where the Old Testament saints were confined, to release them. He also went down to hades to preach and to celebrate His victory over the powers of darkness.
Furthermore, Coptic theologian Ferial Moawad states in his Commentary on the first epistle of Peter, in relation to the verses in question:
When the Lord died in the flesh, His soul was separated from His flesh, but His divinity was not separated from His flesh nor from His soul. The soul departed to Hades to preach those who died on the hope of the resurrection, for Satan has no power over them.
Furthermore In The Spirituality of The Praise According To The Rite Of The Coptic Orthodox Church, H.G. Bishop Anba Mettaous states on page 95:
Hades where Jesus descended to through the Cross, releasing the upright and righteous and all those who reposed on the hope. He left all the wicked ones behind, exactly as Pharaoh and his soldiers had drowned.
His Grace then goes on to state:
As the fire didn’t burn the Three Young Saints, also the fire of Hades did not burn the righteous ones, but the fire rather burnt the devil’s followers, and it is written in the Holy Bible “Look!” he answered, “I see four men loose,walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt, and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.” (Dan.3: 25)
In interpreting this further he emphasizes the connection between the three young saints and the righteous:
There is a great resemblance between the souls of the righteous in Hades and the Three young Saints in the furnace, because the souls of the righteous were not burnt in the blazing Hades, exactly as the Three Young Saints who were not burnt amidst the furnace, but they were as if walking in a garden.
In his Contemplations on the Resurrection, His Holiness Pope Shenouda reiterates the same principle mentioned above in point a) when he states on page 113:
He opened the gate of paradise and carried to Him the righteous who were waiting in Hades. With them, He also let in the right robber to paradise.
And again on page 78 of Many Years with the Peoples Questions Volume II, he states that the purpose of Christ’s descent into hades was to:
“…release the righteous people of the old times who departed in hope letting all of them into Paradise with the thief who was on the Lord's right hand on the cross and whom the Lord promised, "Today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Luke 23:43).”
In The Work of the Cross by Coptic theologian Maged Attia, he states on page 12:
In the majestic procession Christ the Lord descended to Hades immediately after His life giving death on the Cross (with His humanity and divinity inseparable) and opened the gates of Hades to free Adam and his righteous children from the bondage of Satan.
In the Fraction To The Son For the Resurrection of the Coptic Liturgy it states:
You descended to Hades, and suspended the dominion of death, You freed the captives and granted mankind a status of honour. You uplifted Your saints up to Your glory, presented them as offering to Your Gracious Father.
Via poetic parallel, the freed captives are equated with the uplifted Saints. Again, only the righteous from were redeemed from hades.
Fr Tadros Malaty also raitifies the patristic understanding that only the righteous were vindicated from hades when he states in his book Christ in the Eucharist on page 102:
Praying the Nones, according to the Apostolic Tradition, we look like the souls of the righteous whom the Lord remembered – for after He was pierced in His side blood and water, were shed forth, He descended to them in the Hades and gave them rest1.
Fr. Tadros Malaty states also in his commentary of 1 Samuel states in relation to the events of chapter 17:
The lion and bear, both refer to the devil, who dared to attack some of David’s sheep; to get strangled by him. What we are reading, dear brethren, is allegoric: What is symbolized by David, has been realized in our Lord Jesus Christ, who has strangled the lion and the bear, when he descended into Hades to liberate all the saints from their claws.
I can quote you some more fathers of the church than the list I gave earlier, if you like, including Gregory of Nissa, John Damascene, etc...
Thank you for further exposing your ignorance of Orthodox patristics. John the Damascene is not a Church Father. He was a Chalcedonian Father, a Father of a Church in schism.
Furthermore, you have evaded my argument. You can go to your online website article like a robot and paste as many Fathers as you want. In the end they are all being taken out of context to support heresy. In context, it is clear that the term "all" in any of their comments or remarks is not intended literally. The context of their writings qualifies them positions as clearly intending "all the righteous".
But then again, you do not know how to approach patristics. You have appealed to Origen on the very matter for which the Church condemns him, you have disregarded "Western Fathers" as being "Church Fathers", and you have appealed to Fathers who existed outside the canonical boundaries of the Church as authority figures. Please do not attempt to represent yourself as a spokesperson for Orthodoxy; you evidently know nothing. Do the prudent thing, and learn instead of assume.
[quote author=Agape link=board=1;threadid=3780;start=30#msg57333 date=1152171727] John Damascene
If you are refering to St John's work An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, he does not seem to support your theory.
In fact he states: He "became to those who believed the Author of everlasting salvation and to those who did not believe a reproach of their unbelief, so He might become the same to those in Hades: That every knee should bow to Him, of things in heaven, and things in earth and things under the earth. And thus after He had freed those who had been bound for ages, straightway He rose again from the dead, shewing us the way of resurrection."
So St. John is clearly saying here that to those in Hades He became everlasting salvation for believers, but a reproach to the unbelievers.
But, of course, as Iqbal rightly pointed out, if one is arguing about patristics within the framework of the non-Chalcedonian communion, St. John's opinion is superflous.
Oh My God!!!...Thank You Iqbal for honouring me with the greatest title "Spokesperson of the Orthodox faith" . I will keep this title and want you to know that its credibility would never ever be crushed by heavy rains or storm.
Judah definetely went to hell because first of all he did not repent for betraying the lord for money. This is a sin in itself then, ... he hung himself and committed suicide on a tree when he realized what he did he felt unworthy of living although he could have still confessed like the robber on the right hand of jesus on the cross. However, he sinned again by commitikng suicide killing himself and going staright to hell. The worst sin a person could EVER DO IS COMMIT SUICIDE because they go straight to hell because they dont have chance to confess. even if you are a saint and you for some reason likely not commit suicide, you go to hell because that one sin cannot be redeemed. Amen
no we can judge him, commiting suicide is having no hope in turning back, no hope in Christ, God, the Holy Spirit, you just wana end your life cause u have no hope, meaning he fully denied the trinity, making it blasphemy, whichis a HEAVY sin, and im assuming he didnt repent before he soiled himself and died in the desert
Comments
A) You are comitting a straw man fallacy. I did not mention Martin Luther. You are obviously quite ignorant of patristics: St. Ireneous of Lyons and St. Hippolytus are "Western Fathers", and they are "our Church Fathers", and there are many other "Western Fathers" like them who are "our Church Fathers".
Got it?
B) Again yes! Enough ignorance, and address the arguments! Ok?! i) You are contradicting yourself. If St. Clement taught that of the Jews only the righteous were given the opportunity to be saved, then obviously not all those in hades were saved, since you admit that at the very least the unrighteous Jews were hence not saved.
ii) Before you comment on St. Clement, it would be prudent to actually read what he says, as opposed to misrepresenting him just to support your heteredox position. St. Clement clearly states that of the gentiles, only the righteous were saved i.e. those who lived righteously according to their own law and philosophy. Here is a direct quotation from St Clement's Stromata:
"For to those who were righteous according to the law, faith was wanting. Wherefore also the Lord, in healing them, said, "Thy faith hath saved thee." But to those that were righteous according to philosophy, not only faith in the Lord, but also the abandonment of idolatry, were necessary. Straightway, on the revelation of the truth, they also repented of their previous conduct." (Book 6 Chapter 6)
C) I will surely educate you my ignorant friend, and put you in your place. To further crush your credibility as a spokesperson for what is Orthodox, I will now go on to prove that you are directly opposing the teaching of the Church as represented by her Orthodox heriarchs (i.e. figures who have the authority to proclaim Orthodoxy) and her Liturgical rites:
Here is what His Holiness Pope Shenouda III has to say on the issue:
From page 68 of his book Doctrinal Theology: Furthermore, Coptic theologian Ferial Moawad states in his Commentary on the first epistle of Peter, in relation to the verses in question: Furthermore In The Spirituality of The Praise According To The Rite Of The Coptic Orthodox Church, H.G. Bishop Anba Mettaous states on page 95: His Grace then goes on to state: In interpreting this further he emphasizes the connection between the three young saints and the righteous: In his Contemplations on the Resurrection, His Holiness Pope Shenouda reiterates the same principle mentioned above in point a) when he states on page 113: And again on page 78 of Many Years with the Peoples Questions Volume II, he states that the purpose of Christ’s descent into hades was to: In The Work of the Cross by Coptic theologian Maged Attia, he states on page 12: In the Fraction To The Son For the Resurrection of the Coptic Liturgy it states: Via poetic parallel, the freed captives are equated with the uplifted Saints. Again, only the righteous from were redeemed from hades.
Fr Tadros Malaty also raitifies the patristic understanding that only the righteous were vindicated from hades when he states in his book Christ in the Eucharist on page 102: Fr. Tadros Malaty states also in his commentary of 1 Samuel states in relation to the events of chapter 17: Thank you for further exposing your ignorance of Orthodox patristics. John the Damascene is not a Church Father. He was a Chalcedonian Father, a Father of a Church in schism.
Furthermore, you have evaded my argument. You can go to your online website article like a robot and paste as many Fathers as you want. In the end they are all being taken out of context to support heresy. In context, it is clear that the term "all" in any of their comments or remarks is not intended literally. The context of their writings qualifies them positions as clearly intending "all the righteous".
But then again, you do not know how to approach patristics. You have appealed to Origen on the very matter for which the Church condemns him, you have disregarded "Western Fathers" as being "Church Fathers", and you have appealed to Fathers who existed outside the canonical boundaries of the Church as authority figures. Please do not attempt to represent yourself as a spokesperson for Orthodoxy; you evidently know nothing. Do the prudent thing, and learn instead of assume.
John Damascene
If you are refering to St John's work An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, he does not seem to support your theory.
In fact he states: He "became to those who believed the Author of everlasting salvation and to those who did not believe a reproach of their unbelief, so He might become the same to those in Hades: That every knee should bow to Him, of things in heaven, and things in earth and things under the earth. And thus after He had freed those who had been bound for ages, straightway He rose again from the dead, shewing us the way of resurrection."
So St. John is clearly saying here that to those in Hades He became everlasting salvation for believers, but a reproach to the unbelievers.
But, of course, as Iqbal rightly pointed out, if one is arguing about patristics within the framework of the non-Chalcedonian communion, St. John's opinion is superflous.
Are you here to learn and contribute, or are you here to be funny?
This is a sin in itself
then, ... he hung himself and committed suicide on a tree when he realized what he did
he felt unworthy of living although he could have still confessed like the robber on the right hand of jesus on the cross.
However, he sinned again by commitikng suicide killing himself and going staright to hell.
The worst sin a person could EVER DO IS COMMIT SUICIDE because they go straight to hell because they dont have chance to confess. even if you are a saint and you for some reason likely not commit suicide, you go to hell because that one sin cannot be redeemed.
Amen