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Holy 50s Communion Hymns

ZoxsasiZoxsasi
in Hymns Discussion
Dear Friends & Deacons

Can someone kindly tell me what Communion Hymns are available for this Resurrection period?

What are your favourites?

Thanks
Zox

Comments

  • KhepraKhepra
    edited April 2015
    Kata ni khoros all the way. [ edited by admin ]
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    Khepra... is there anything wrong with your choice? The admin have moderated it. 
    Did you by any chance suggest that we sing Agios Athanatos Nai Nan? I know the admins, being Orthodox, only like to sing that once a year.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    Zoxsasi said:

    Did you by any chance suggest that we sing Agios Athanatos Nai Nan? I know the admins, being Orthodox, only like to sing that once a year.
    The Watos Psali for Bright Saturday and the hymn said after is supposed to be said just for Bright Saturday. When the Synod decided otherwise, you are welcome to say it anytime. It really have nothing to do with being "Orthodox"....that statement is being overrated these days thinking that it simply means "we do not change"
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    Hey Mina,

    That's OK. I just hum the tune of Agios Athanatos Nai Nan when driving now. 

    What hymns do we sing during the Holy Communion.

    I'm not sure if you've read the Philokalia, but the Jesus prayer is really really vital. Our Orthodox Chuch has these little Jesus Prayers in the tasbeha scattered everywhere. Very powerful, by the way!
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    edited April 2015
    Zoxsasi said:

    That's OK. I just hum the tune of Agios Athanatos Nai Nan when driving now. 

    that's fine. I do too with many other bright saturday hymns i love. 

    What hymns do we sing during the Holy Communion.

    There weekly madayeh for every week, you can say those before or after Kata nikhorus. There are a couple of songs too. 
  • lfahmylfahmy
    Well there are many songs, if that's what you're looking for. But it terms of hymns, it's mainly just kata ni khoros and the doxology in a slower version of the doxology tune.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    edited April 2015
    You can sing the Easter Doxology during Communion?
    Which one?

    Apekhristos Penoti Tonf Evol Khen Ni Ethmo-oot, or Tote Ron Afmoh in Rashi??
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    I will tell you what is not appropriate to sing during the Distribution: Truly Risen and Very Early Sunday Morning. Very Protestant (evangelical) hymns that have no Orthodox understanding of the Resurrection.
  • qawe
    Remnkemi said:

    I will tell you what is not appropriate to sing during the Distribution: Truly Risen and Very Early Sunday Morning. Very Protestant (evangelical) hymns that have no Orthodox understanding of the Resurrection.

    ^Both those hymns are officially listed in CopticReader.  Do you mind elaborating on what you see as the songs' deficiencies?
  • ophadeceophadece
    Ekhrestos anesty
    @qawe,
    I don't think Coptic reader is a good reference. It's good enough don't get me wrong but it's actually not devoid of mistakes either and basic ones I might add..
    oujai khan ebshois
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    Very Early Sunday Morning was discussed a few years back. I'll try to find the thread.

    Basically for Very Early Sunday Morning, the focus of the theme is what Jesus' Resurrection does for me: "Resurrection made me strong", "Resurrection gives me joy". These are true statements but such a view of the Resurrection is deficient in itself. 

    There is a phrase that implies salvation in a moment heresy. There is also the heresy that God left heaven (or was not omnipresent) when the angels were "singing, welcoming our glorious Lord". Why would angels welcome the Lord, unless the Lord was in some other place before? This contradicts the scriptures that say "Where can I flee from your presence?" (Psalm 139:7). The angels were not welcoming the Lord back home. They were praising His divinity. Do you see the difference?

    What really bothers me is this increasing Protestant theology that salvation came through the Resurrection. This is blatantly against the fathers. Salvation and reconciliation began at the incarnation, came on Good Friday, continues through our lives until the Final Judgement. The Fathers called Good Friday the wedding of God and the cross was the bridal chamber of God. But all Protestant theology declares about the Cross is the suffering and misery brought on by sinners, ignoring the importance of Good Friday and the soteriological importance of a righteous life until the Second Coming.

    For Truly Risen, there is nothing Orthodox. The tune is set in a solemn, almost Paschal tune to begin with. All the verses are set to repeat the story as an evangelical would teach a catechumen. I understand some people may consider this a matter of style preference. Maybe it is. But I think we are dismissing our time tested hymnography for catchy short lived songs.

    In both of these songs, it is what is blatantly absent that makes them protestant. All these songs do is emotionally charge the listener, making a listener feel the sadness of Mary in the garden, the fear of the disciples, the weeping and crying and looking at an empty grave, Thomas' disbelief, etc. There is no mention of Orthodox liturgical formulae, there is no references to prophecies, there is no reference to the Eucharist or the sacraments, there is no communal worship, the pronoun "we" is never used, there is no theology that talks about God's mercy, God's love, reconciliation with heaven, singing with the angels, glorification of saints, etc. 

    There is also a lot of bad English in both of these songs. Last I checked, verbs do not come after subjects and nouns. There is no such thing as "thorns of death". Our standard has reached rock bottom and we think nothing of it.

    Contrast these songs with Ya Kool al sefoof or Kata nikhoros. In both of these hymns, there is never any mention of fear, weeping, sadness. There is no "my" used. There is no salvation or victory that came only on Resurrection Sunday or salvation by believing only or salvation in a moment. There is plenty of prophecies from the Psalms cited. There is reconciliation with heaven and singing with angels together. There is a reference to the angels singing "O what symphonies of the prophecies concerning the Christ and His Resurrection" which declares our faith in reconciliation and God's providence. There is a reference to the "Daughter of Zion" which is a reference to the Virgin Mary and the Church. There is liturgical formulae like "Our Lord, Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God", "Restoring Adam to Paradise", "Christ transfigured in glory" etc. And we end by saying "His mercy endures forever." It is glorification to Him. It is about Him, not us or what He does for us.

    When we say "Christ is risen", "Truly He is risen", it is not a merely a factual statement or a repeating of a biblical narrative. It is a declaration of our living theology. It is a declaration of how we understand God's interaction with mankind. I think it is completely pointless to merely repeat a story about Christ, especially if the story only appeals to my narrow focused understanding of what Christ did to me. 

    Coptic Reader is not the immutable, infallible God of Coptic hymns. It is a working progress, as evident by the number of updates. Much of the rites described contradict what has been done for many years (and is still being done) in churches outside of the Souther diocese. Coptic Reader is a snapshot of one way to do liturgical rites. It is not authoritative in itself and last I checked the Synod never officially declared Coptic Reader the exclusive authoritative reference for rites.
  • cyril
    +1000 Theological Poetry For The Win.

    Rem would this also apply to long hymns? And the importance of beauty?
  • cyril
    I've heard that some EO Churches just sing the Resurrection Tropars. They're repetitive but also done beautifully, so I wonder if there's an exception to intricate theological poetry when beauty is communicating the theology (when it's done, how it's done, the context).
  • TITLTITL
    edited June 2015
    Sorry for resurrecting an old thread (no pun intended.. Well maybe a little intended..), but reading Doc Rem's post on Truly Risen and Very Early Sunday Morning really got me thinking. First of all, I never thought twice about these songs before, so this was eye opening. Thank you for that!

    So the reason I'm bringing this up now is because I was wondering why we haven't been proactive in getting rid of ALL these songs in the Coptic Church. Why don't we have a committee in the diaspora (made up of priests, deacons and people who study theology) who review lyrics to each English spiritual song and run it by bishops? Why isn't this a thing yet?

    I mean, I understand this isn't an easy process or something that can be accomplished in a year. I also know people will probably reject this idea as they want to preserve certain songs, but I'm just thinking, if this was an official committee (and His Holiness approved) it might actually work. The committee would need an official website with all approved spiritual songs and lyrics. People who wish to publish new songs would send in requests and the committee would then edit, approve, and add to list. It would be our "go-to" site for English spiritual songs!

    I'm just proposing this idea; hopefully someone somewhere (who knows more than I do/has more connections with the Synod) will read this and implement one day. That's all :)

  • ophadeceophadece
    Because people like emotionally enthusiastic songs over boring Coptic notes
    oujai khan ebshois
  • ophadeceophadece
    Charismatic is the term, and @titl you can refer to the other thread on that..
    oujai khan ebshois
  • TITLTITL
    ophadece said:

    Because people like emotionally enthusiastic songs over boring Coptic notes
    oujai khan ebshois


    Is this a response to my post? I didn't mention Coptic hymns.

    ophadece said:

    Charismatic is the term, and @titl you can refer to the other thread on that..
    oujai khan ebshois

    What thread?
  • ophadeceophadece
    @titl,
    I thought you were referring to those songs sung during communion. Another thread about the conference deciding on new changes along with charismatic worship
    oujai khan ebshois
  • TITLTITL
    I'm sorry, I'm not following. Can you link me to the thread?
  • qawe
    http://tasbeha.org/community/discussion/15657/pray-for-lands-of-immigration-conference/p2
  • qawe
    @TITL

    The simple answer is that people aren't willing to use worship that is Orthodox in ethos.  So any committee will either approve songs that shouldn't be (if there was ever a committee I am CERTAIN they would approve Truly Risen and Very Early Sunday Morning) OR be strict and have everyone ignore them.
  • qawe
    Remnkemi said:

    What really bothers me is this increasing Protestant theology that salvation came through the Resurrection. This is blatantly against the fathers. Salvation and reconciliation began at the incarnation, came on Good Friday, continues through our lives until the Final Judgement. The Fathers called Good Friday the wedding of God and the cross was the bridal chamber of God. But all Protestant theology declares about the Cross is the suffering and misery brought on by sinners, ignoring the importance of Good Friday and the soteriological importance of a righteous life until the Second Coming.
    Hi @Remnkemi,

    I actually thought it was the opposite.  That the East emphasises the Resurrection and the West emphasises the Cross.  Anba Raphael says so here: 
  • TITLTITL
    qawe said:

    @TITL


    (if there was ever a committee I am CERTAIN they would approve Truly Risen and Very Early Sunday Morning).
    Then Rem will need to be in the committee!!!

    All I'm saying is that it's an idea. Probably far-fetched, but I'm hoping this will happen one day. If I ever casually meet His Holiness, and we have time to talk, I'll bring it up ;)

  • TITLTITL
    qawe said:

    Remnkemi said:

    What really bothers me is this increasing Protestant theology that salvation came through the Resurrection. This is blatantly against the fathers. Salvation and reconciliation began at the incarnation, came on Good Friday, continues through our lives until the Final Judgement. The Fathers called Good Friday the wedding of God and the cross was the bridal chamber of God. But all Protestant theology declares about the Cross is the suffering and misery brought on by sinners, ignoring the importance of Good Friday and the soteriological importance of a righteous life until the Second Coming.
    Hi @Remnkemi,

    I actually thought it was the opposite.  That the East emphasises the Resurrection and the West emphasises the Cross.  Anba Raphael says so here: 
    I also thought resurrection is the source of everything in Orthodoxy, and without it, we have no church. You're saying we emphasize Good Friday more than Resurrection? That's confusing to me :/
  • qawe
    edited June 2015
    The Antiochian Archdiocese has a similar resource for hymns: http://www.antiochian.org/music/library

    This doesn't include non-liturgical 'songs', but then again the Antiochians don't use 'songs' for worship or in the 'spiritual' part of youth meetings, etc.
  • TITLTITL
    qawe said:

    but the Antiochians don't use 'songs' for worship or in the 'spiritual' part of youth meetings, etc.

    Are we the only Orthodox church that use spiritual songs?

  • qawe
    edited June 2015
    TITL said:

    qawe said:

    but the Antiochians don't use 'songs' for worship or in the 'spiritual' part of youth meetings, etc.

    Are we the only Orthodox church that use spiritual songs?

    Us and the Indians only, I believe.  As a response to the Western missionaries (at least that's the reason the Coptic Church has them).

    Other Orthodox do have non-liturgical songs but they are not used for devotional purposes.  I think that is more in keeping with Tradition.  Like what's the point of having a liturgy that's supposed to guide and direct your worship, if you can just dispense with it whenever it gets too 'boring'.
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    It's all the events of Christ culminating in His resurrection.  I just listened to the lecture by HG Bishop Raphael, and he does point out that the whole story is necessary and yet not enough, because the Eucharist is also part of our salvation as well.  Without the Eucharist, Christ becomes a "hero" like Gandi or George Washington or Gamal abd el Nasser.  But Christ came so that He can give us His very own life through humanity, the life of the divine nature.  Therefore, in partaking of the Eucharist, we have the life He is, and in doing so we partake of the divine nature.  So salvation begins at the incarnation, continues throughout His human life, into His suffering and death on the Cross, and the Resurrection and Ascension, and continues into the sacramental life of the Church today.  Salvation is emphasized as an ongoing process, not a one-time story or an emphasis.  I personally do not buy into the argument that the Catholics emphasize the suffering and death on the Cross.  They do in fact have some theologians that concentrated heavily on the sufferings and death of Christ as part of their piety in suffering and dying with Him.  But the Roman Catholics also have mystics who emphasize the Resurrection.  It's rather the Protestants that are more concerning, giving us a story of a hero who died for us, without any way of partaking of Christ.  So all we get from Protestants is He suffered and died, and that's it.  A story, and a book (which they took from us), but not a life to live liturgically.

    So the Resurrection we spend 50 days celebrating it and emphasizing it because this is the hope by which we live for, and in every Sunday throughout the whole year, we think of and celebrate the resurrection.  Yes, we as Orthodox do emphasize that.  At the same time, we also emphasize His whole life, starting with the incarnation as the beginning of salvation until the second coming of Christ, which is when salvation becomes complete.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    This was closed on the hope of not causing arguments. You guys have problems with these songs referenced, and you think they are serious, then you are welcome to contact a bishop with detailed reasoning. I'll also be happy to contact (or begin a dialogue) with HG Bishop Youssef or David or Karas with any researches that give any legitimate or concerning problems that maybe caused by keeping them in Church. Also, please consider that the source of the two songs in question is Arabic and not English....so know which translation is being criticized
This discussion has been closed.