Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Categories
- All Categories 13.8K
- General Category 10.9K
- General Announcements 184
- Faith Issues 3.4K
- Coptic Orthodox Church 2.5K
- Personal Issues 1.4K
- Prayer Requests 426
- Random Issues 1.8K
- Introductions 295
- Non-Orthodox Inquiries 232
- Youth Corner 606
- Hymns 2.6K
- Hymns Discussion 2.6K
- Technicial Difficulties 368
- Technical Topics 368
Comments
Do you not feel that you are invading peoples space by preaching our dogma to them? you had not been given the calling to preach have you? you do not know how to preach because God has not annointed you
I see three accusations that I like you to respond to:
Where have u seen me preach?
How do u know that I have not been called to preach? What are the qualifications to preach?
How am I invading other people's space?
Hosea is crying:
"My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I also will reject you from being priest for Me; Because you have forgotten the law of your God, I also will forget your children."
I do not know what qualifications you need. You need to first of all have read the bible at least 3 times. Second you must be a sensitive person and acknowledge you do not know everything. As before in general to tasbeha people. If you are like me, you may have invaded peoples space before
If you do not believe in your church fully you can not preach it but you may be required to know your church fully
The Orthodox Church keeps and observes what the Lord entrusted Her. Protestants, on the other hand, protest against the Orthodox Church for doing so; either knowingly or unknowingly.
Therefore the Coptic youths should be very careful in engaging in any prayer setting with those who protest against them. They should avoid them in any religious or spiritual setting.
This goes for any Orthodox, Copt or otherwise, young or otherwise.
I highly suspect that Stavro is ILSM. ::)
No, it is the other way around.
Ioannes,
the reference to Hippolytus's quote regarding the neglect of the Psalmody is most interesting. Can you indicate where you found it in his writings?
The Gospel has both a positive and negative aspect.
On the one hand it calls those who hear it to repent, to leave the world, to turn from error and darkness to the light. It requires a definite redirection to our lives.
On the other hand it offers to those who hear it a way of life and light, of peace and joy, but also of sacrifice, perseverance and suffering.
The Christian Gospel knows nothing at all of a false silence due to an unwillingness to speak for fear of upsetting people, or a bogus sense of not wanting to impose our views. If we will not share the Gospel message of repentance and life then we are guilty of the blood of all those we have not cared for.
If a man was walking blindfolded towards a cliff we would not dream of saying 'I don't want to invade his space'. We would not dream of saying 'Its not my job to warn him'.
His Holiness in his Christmas message urges us all to be involved in mission and tells us that ..
You do good if you are able to share in mission work, or by conveying the word of God to those who do not know it, or by conveying the faith to unbelievers.
May we all be concerned to be engaged in such work and service to those who are lost, those who are in error and those who are deceived.
But not all music. Just because something is musical does not make it good, nor does it mean that music in any particular case is being used in the service of God and mankind.
We know that music has physical and psychological effects. The Scriptures teach us this. Therefore we must follow the advice of our fathers so that a harmful physical and psychological effect does not affect our spirituality.
To eat is good. Food in general is good. But not all food is good and healthy, and not all eating is good and healthy. We fast so much so that we learn and are taught that what is generally good can be harmful, and that the rejection of something which can be generally good for a time, and which is particularly bad at all times, is a necessary aspect of our Christian spiritual life.
In regard to music there is secular music which I find uplifting in a human way. But I never allow it to become part of my spiritual life. There is a need always to turn it off and tune in to God in silence. There is a secular music which I can never listen to anymore. Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and all the death and nihilism inspired groups are never part of my play lists anymore. I listened to them when I was younger. But now that I am more Christian I would rather not listen to them again. It is not just or even a matter of words and music - the songs remain the same - but I do not want such people to have any influence over me or for me to be associated with such people and the lifestyles they adopted and endorsed.
I cannot and will not listen to all that modern music which is filled with foul language or abuse against women or is obsessed with sexuality. None of that features on my play lists because I do not want it to influence me at all. I do not want to have such lyrics going round in my head, and I do not want to be associated with the people and lifestyles which are around such music.
Am I absolute about this? No, I am not. But the music is part of the message, and the lifestyles of many pop and rock 'stars' are not to be emulated or envied.
There is a lot of secular music which I enjoy and which has lyrics about the human condition. But, But, But. I do not listen to music which seeks to present a moral or spiritual message which is not Orthodox. And I do not allow the secular music I listen to into my spiritual life.
Just as I would not say, I always enjoy eating a Big Mac when I am praying, so I would not say, I always enjoy listening to Jethro Tull when I am praying. There is a time and a place. There is that which is human and part of a universal human created culture which is good in its own way. But it is not to enter the little room of our heart where we pray. Indeed prayer is rooted in both fasting and silence.
Now in regard to Protestant concerts. These, it seems to me, cross the line. They are not simply songs about the human condition or human situations. They are songs which convey a spirituality and morality. And that spirituality and morality IS NOT ORTHODOX by which we mean IT IS NOT FULLY CHRISTIAN and IT CONTAINS ERROR.
I have to say that for me personally, as someone who knows Protestantism very well indeed and has been a Protestant for more than half of my life - I CANNOT LISTEN TO THIS MUSIC AT ALL. Indeed the more Christian I become the less I can listen to it. In fact I cannot tolerate it at all. This is not sour grapes. I have lots of Protestant friends and I understand Protestantism in its variety very well. But there is something in this music which makes my spirit rise up in objection.
Now the problem, it seems to me, is that those who are the least able to discern what is Orthodox and what is not are those same people who wish to say that Protestant music is fine. Let me say rhetorically. How would you know? Have you been a Christian for 48 years? Have you been a Protestant for 26 years? Are you fully aware of what Orthodoxy is? Surely the very fact that you think Protestant music is fine is an indication that you do not know what Orthodoxy is?
It is not simply the lyrics, and most Protestant lyrics are Protestant. It is also the musical style. The medium is the message. When we listent to such songs it is not just the lyrics that are entering our hearts but the means of presentation. And of course it is attractive. It is part of that created human culture. But we don't eat when we are praying and we don't text people when we are praying and we don't make phone calls when we are praying. There are lots of things we don't do when we are praying because prayer is interior and silent and self-sacrificing.
Protestant songs teach us the opposite. It is exterior, it is noisy and it is self-satisfying. How many people here on tasbeha have posted about Protestant songs and said 'I like them'. Quite a few, But that is a great deal of the problem. It is like a child saying - I don't see a problem with chocolate, I like it. Well yes of course you do, it feeds a particular aspect of your humanity. But Protestant songs are the same. They feed a certain aspect of our humanity which should be learning silence and watchfulness before God.
Let me say again. I like lots of music. But 'worship songs' are not about the worship of God. And a concert of 'worship songs' is not about God either. It must either be the elevation of men in the context of worship, or it must be the elevation of a false style of worship. Indeed this is why I get concerned about the celebrity status of some priests - which I am sure they do not seek. The search for the 'best liturgy' is rooted in this same external view of worship as something which is exciting, emotionally stimulating, passion arousing etc.
We can be sure, and the accounts of the saints repeatedly teach us this, that the best and most-God pleasing liturgy which will be served this Sunday will be in a small and humble Church somewhere, with only a few devoted people and a priest who has almost lost his voice through age and use. No-one will be videoing him, and if they did no-one would watch his video on Youtube. I have stood next to such a man, and would wish to be such a man.
Of course Protestant music is exciting. It is meant to be. But that doesn't mean it is spiritual at all. Indeed it is the antithesis of the spiritual life. Do embrace it is to embrace a false spirituality. It is not just the words, it is the music, it is the culture, it is the deficient doctrine and spirituality which have produced this culture. All of these will have an influence on the person who turns to this sort of music.
I can't listen to it at all now. It makes me feel very disturbed indeed. I can't listen to some groups I used to anymore. Their music also makes me feel very disturbed indeed.
Nothing which is not Orthodox should be allowed any influence on our spiritual lives at all. When we have truly learned how to pray and worship God, then perhaps we will be in a position to listen to such music without harm. But for me, I find it more and more difficult to even hear, and I could never participate in it. Indeed when I have been unable to avoid some such situation I will not sing such songs. It doesn't even matter if the words appear sound. They are part of a Protestant culture.
There is much more I could say. I have been a Protestant. I have been a charismatic. I have studied at a Protestant seminary. I have lived with Protestant missionaries. I know the difference between Orthodoxy and Protestantism.
Father, based on your interest in secular music (which isn't filled with "foul language or abuse against women or is obsessed with sexuality"), I think you'll like this one:
i really like that song, & i can't find any reason not to listen to it.
I'm just a little discouraged though, because I know like the other Protestant song list, this one will be totally ignored.
What are your thoughts Father? Do you think if I annoy the Admins enough, they'll remove the Protestant songs, add the Orthodox ones and get me a Shoutbox?
Fr. Peter, thanks for the post. But I need you to help me understand why in the world many of our priests do not share your concern?! I'm either left to conclude that you are biased because of your conversion or they just don't realize the seriousness of this issue. . .
just don't realize the seriousness of this issue ....
[quote author=Andrew link=topic=12797.msg150406#msg150406 date=1326495378]
Fr. Peter, thanks for the post. But I need you to help me understand why in the world many of our priests do not share your concern?! I'm either left to conclude that you are biased because of your conversion or they just don't realize the seriousness of this issue. . .
just don't realize the seriousness of this issue ....
That is it. Many priests do not realize the seriousness, and probably do not see a difference. This is why we need to bring this to light. Abouna Athanasius in Kitchener, Ontario is well aware of this issue as well. So, we all need to be much more open about this issue, bring it out in the open and stop letting it hide at our back door. We have to remember, there are quite a few people who think this is a good thing, we need to show them why it is not. Let us stop complaining on internet forums and start speaking out. DEFEND YOUR CHURCH PEOPLE!
I think that many priests do not share my concern because they are ignorant of Protestantism except for their external relation and appreciation of it. I have real experience of Protestantism. I also think that there is a false opinion going around which says that we must not stop the youth doing what they want or they will leave - but if they do what they want then they are already not Orthodox. And I think there is also a false opinion which might lead some to believe that being 'Western' and Orthodox requires absorbing elements of Protestantism. It certainly doesn't.
I have many Protestant friends. I am well aware of the different varieties, and those which are serious and closer to Orthodoxy and those (which are most attractive to our youth) which are further away from true Christianity. I had a lengthy discussion with some Protestant friends on Wednesday about the intercession of the saints. They have a serious faith which can be discussed. Others I know are making up their faith as they go along. I am aware of the differences. I am well aware of all of Protestant Church History. I am, as far as Coptic Orthodox go, an expert on Protestantism. Therefore I consider that my views, and those of others with personal knowledge and experience should be heeded by those who lack that knowledge.
This is a MUST listen sermon by him: Strip the vanity of the heretics
Very suitable for all the protestant discussions we've been having.
Protestantism is full of heresies that our Coptic youths must be aware of so they won't fall in its snares.
[/i]
At our church's youth meetings from sk to the university graduate meetings, thats all we sing and do is protestant music and protestant style bible studies, protestant style preaching. Except for sunday morning's liturgy we are protestants sitting in front of the icons and the altar, ignoring it all.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12797.msg150386#msg150386 date=1326478632]
Protestantism is full of heresies that our Coptic youths must be aware of so they won't fall in its snares.
[/i]
At our church's youth meetings from sk to the university graduate meetings, thats all we sing and do is protestant music and protestant style bible studies, protestant style preaching. Except for sunday morning's liturgy we are protestants sitting in front of the icons and the altar, ignoring it all.
Sad and disgusting. I pray that God will allow the words of Abouna Peter and others to reach these people that think this behavior is alright.