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Comments
Oujai
There is the story of St. Marium el massreya, st. Marium the Copt...
Oujai
St Mary of Egypt DID receive baptism in the Jordan river.
The Oration on the Holy Lights was preached on the Festival of the Epiphany 381, and was followed the next day by that on Baptism. In the Eastern Church this Festival is regarded as more particularly the commemoration of our Lord's Baptism, and is accordingly one of the great days for the solemn ministration of the Sacrament. It is generally called Theophania, and the Gospel in the Liturgy is S. Matthew iii. 13-17. The Sunday in the Octave is called μετὰ τὰ φῶτα (After The Lights), pointing to a time when the Feast was known as the Holy Lights, as seems to have been the case in S. Gregory's day. This name is derived from Baptism, which was often in ancient days called Illumination, in reference to which name (derived from the spiritual grace of the Sacrament) lighted torches or candles were carried by the neophytes. It would appear that the solemnites of the Festival lasted two days, of which the second was devoted to the solemn conferring of the Sacrament. Accordingly we find two Orations belonging to the Festival. In the first, delivered on the Day itself he dwells more especially on the Feast and the Mystery of our Lord's Baptism therein commemorated; and proceeds to speak of the different kinds of Baptism, of which he enumerates Five, viz.:—
The figurative Baptism of Israel by Moses in the cloud and in the Sea.
The preparatory Baptism of repentance ministered by S. John the Baptist.
The spiritual Baptism of water and the Holy Ghost given us by our Lord.
The glorious Baptism of Martyrdom.
The painful Baptism of Penance.
Source.
Oujai
For example, in the biography of St. Pachomius. Him and a bunch of monks were upset because a catechumen was dying and there was no priest to baptize him. Then the monks saw St. Pachomius rejoice. They inquired where his joy came from and he said that he saw the same angels that came to take the man's soul baptize him before taking his soul.
Can God baptize people in ways not known to us? Sure. Do we know that He will? No. So, we keep doing what we know works and we advocate it, since there is no guarantee that anything else works.
(+= autocephalous episcopate, -= autonomus episcopate)
+Coptic Orthodox
-British Orthodox Church
-French Coptic Orthodox Church
+Ethiopian Orthodox
+Eritrean Orthodox
+Armenian Apostolic Orthodox (Etchmiadzin, Cilicia, Jerusalem)
+Malankara/Indian Orthodox
+Syriac ("Jacobite") Orthodox
-Jacobite/Indian Syrian Orthodox
We are in full communion with them and together we all comprise the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church.
[quote author=JG link=topic=12303.msg144457#msg144457 date=1315680131]
[quote author=St. Gregory Nazianzen, Oration 39]
The Oration on the Holy Lights was preached on the Festival of the Epiphany 381, and was followed the next day by that on Baptism. In the Eastern Church this Festival is regarded as more particularly the commemoration of our Lord's Baptism, and is accordingly one of the great days for the solemn ministration of the Sacrament. It is generally called Theophania, and the Gospel in the Liturgy is S. Matthew iii. 13-17. The Sunday in the Octave is called μετὰ τὰ φῶτα (After The Lights), pointing to a time when the Feast was known as the Holy Lights, as seems to have been the case in S. Gregory's day. This name is derived from Baptism, which was often in ancient days called Illumination, in reference to which name (derived from the spiritual grace of the Sacrament) lighted torches or candles were carried by the neophytes. It would appear that the solemnites of the Festival lasted two days, of which the second was devoted to the solemn conferring of the Sacrament. Accordingly we find two Orations belonging to the Festival. In the first, delivered on the Day itself he dwells more especially on the Feast and the Mystery of our Lord's Baptism therein commemorated; and proceeds to speak of the different kinds of Baptism, of which he enumerates Five, viz.:—
The figurative Baptism of Israel by Moses in the cloud and in the Sea.
The preparatory Baptism of repentance ministered by S. John the Baptist.
The spiritual Baptism of water and the Holy Ghost given us by our Lord.
The glorious Baptism of Martyrdom.
The painful Baptism of Penance.
Source.
Excellent source. Thank you for further elucidating that there are in fact different types of baptism, all recognized by the Church and God.
Once again, God made the sacraments for man, not man for the sacraments.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12303.msg144450#msg144450 date=1315677006]
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12303.msg144449#msg144449 date=1315676902]
DEar Cephas,
I think you last post is much clearer than the previous one, and like imikhail I think I missed your point, but you expressed it more concisely and elaborately. I agree with you, we certainly know of saints and people whom the Holy Spirit worked in in the last moment or even the death bed even though they hadn't had the chance of getting baptized.
Oujai
St. Desmas (i.e. the good thief). Reference: The Gospels.
I'm not sure that you could call him a saint, we remember him as 'the thief' for a reason.
[quote author=LoveisDivine link=topic=12303.msg144476#msg144476 date=1315722095]
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12303.msg144452#msg144452 date=1315678216]
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12303.msg144450#msg144450 date=1315677006]
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12303.msg144449#msg144449 date=1315676902]
DEar Cephas,
I think you last post is much clearer than the previous one, and like imikhail I think I missed your point, but you expressed it more concisely and elaborately. I agree with you, we certainly know of saints and people whom the Holy Spirit worked in in the last moment or even the death bed even though they hadn't had the chance of getting baptized.
Oujai
St. Desmas (i.e. the good thief). Reference: The Gospels.
I'm not sure that you could call him a saint, we remember him as 'the thief' for a reason.
The fact that he is a thief does not, in anyway, detract from his sainthood. I have never heard of his sainthood being questioned until now. If Christ specifically told him that he would be in paradise with Him, how is that not grounds for sainthood. Christ Himself praised and honoured him.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=LoveisDivine link=topic=12303.msg144476#msg144476 date=1315722095]
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12303.msg144452#msg144452 date=1315678216]
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12303.msg144450#msg144450 date=1315677006]
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=12303.msg144449#msg144449 date=1315676902]
DEar Cephas,
I think you last post is much clearer than the previous one, and like imikhail I think I missed your point, but you expressed it more concisely and elaborately. I agree with you, we certainly know of saints and people whom the Holy Spirit worked in in the last moment or even the death bed even though they hadn't had the chance of getting baptized.
Oujai
St. Desmas (i.e. the good thief). Reference: The Gospels.
I'm not sure that you could call him a saint, we remember him as 'the thief' for a reason.
The fact that he is a thief does not, in anyway, detract from his sainthood. I have never heard of his sainthood being questioned until now. If Christ specifically told him that he would be in paradise with Him, how is that not grounds for sainthood. Christ Himself praised and honoured him.
But the tradition from the pascha and most of the reflections I've heard all emphasise how he stole his salvation at the last moments of his life. I don't recall anything from tradition which has ever acclaimed him to be anything other than that.
[quote author=LoveisDivine link=topic=12303.msg144479#msg144479 date=1315723959]
But the tradition from the pascha and most of the reflections I've heard all emphasise how he stole his salvation at the last moments of his life. I don't recall anything from tradition which has ever acclaimed him to be anything other than that.
That is true. However, I fail to see why that should be: a) viewed in a negative light and b) affect his status as a saint in the Church. Let's not also forget the Hymn of the Confession of the Thief which we chant at the sixth hour on Good Friday. In particular note the following: Source
Seems pretty clear that Demas was blessed and worthy of being a Saint.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=LoveisDivine link=topic=12303.msg144479#msg144479 date=1315723959]
But the tradition from the pascha and most of the reflections I've heard all emphasise how he stole his salvation at the last moments of his life. I don't recall anything from tradition which has ever acclaimed him to be anything other than that.
That is true. However, I fail to see why that should be: a) viewed in a negative light and b) affect his status as a saint in the Church. Let's not also forget the Hymn of the Confession of the Thief which we chant at the sixth hour on Good Friday. In particular note the following: Source
Seems pretty clear that Demas was blessed and worthy of being a Saint.
Everyone that enters paradise is blessed - this is obvious; I really don't follow this as a proof of his sainthood.
While everyone who enters Paradise may be blessed, how many have hymns dedicated in memory of their confession? How many have been blessed to hear Christ say directly to them, 'Today you will be with me in Paradise'? Once again, I have never heard anyone question the sainthood of Desmas. On what basis are you discrediting it?
There is no Tradition, Alexandrian or otherwise, which calls Demas "Saint". No dedication of an altar to his name throughout the history of the Church and no mention of him in any Church diptych. I believe this is a discussion for another thread.
To summarize:
Salvation is granted only through the Church for within the Church baptism is received, without which there is no salvation.
To receive baptism, the baptized must have faith in the redemption of our Lord Jesus Christ and repent of committed sins.
The baptized must then work s/his own salvation through good works and the support of the other sacraments offered through the Church.
Salvation starts in the Church and is perfected in Heaven.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
While everyone who enters Paradise may be blessed, how many have hymns dedicated in memory of their confession? How many have been blessed to hear Christ say directly to them, 'Today you will be with me in Paradise'? Once again, I have never heard anyone question the sainthood of Desmas. On what basis are you discrediting it?
Because Christ says it (hopefully) to all of us in the Gospel: All the Church is really doing is honouring a soul which achieved salvation much like God would; this probably is a discussion for another thread or another time.
LiD
So basically what you're both saying is, you both have no evidence to discredit his sainthood. Great. I'm glad we've established that. In the meantime, let's discredit the sainthood of King David, all the prophets, all the patriarchs (i.e. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) and let's throw in Adam and Eve to the mix as well. Oh, and Pope Kyrollos VI isn't a saint either. Good to know.
And while we're add it, how about we tell our Ethiopian Orthodox brothers and sisters that their church made a booboo including Pontius Pilate as a saint.
FYI: Dismas the thief - complete with feast day and icon.
And now, back to your regularly scheduled nonsense.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=12303.msg144382#msg144382 date=1315493218]
The Church is the only place where one can receive baptism without which there is no salvation. So, there is no salvation outside the Church. This is what is important. We know this and we will be measured by what we know.
In case you missed it: Now replace circumcision with baptism since, as we know, circumcision is to the Jews what baptism is to the Christians. I think it is important to note that St. Paul is directing his Epistle to Christians (Jewish Christians, but Christians nonetheless) and not to unconverted Jews.
Wrong logic.
Circumcision was a symbol realized through baptism. So, there is no way you can replace the symbol with reality. Applying your logic to the manna which was a symbol of Christ's flesh, we would then say that the Jews ate the flesh of Jesus in the wilderness. Absolute nonsense. That is no way to study the Scriptures.
As there was not possible for any one to be included in God's people unless he underwent circumcision, there is no way salvation can be attained except through baptism.
To understand baptism in Orthodoxy, please read Comparative Theology by Pope Shenouda starting with P.17
+ Irini nem ehmot,
So basically what you're both saying is, you both have no evidence to discredit his sainthood. Great. I'm glad we've established that. In the meantime, let's discredit the sainthood of King David, all the prophets, all the patriarchs (i.e. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob) and let's throw in Adam and Eve to the mix as well. Oh, and Pope Kyrollos VI isn't a saint either. Good to know.
And while we're add it, how about we tell our Ethiopian Orthodox brothers and sisters that their church made a booboo including Pontius Pilate as a saint.
FYI: Dismas the thief - complete with feast day and icon.
And now, back to your regularly scheduled nonsense.
I am afraid that a 17th century icon does not prove Tradition. If you really want to establish your point, bring one Church father from the first five centuries that refer to Demas as a saint. Or better yet find any diptych that include him. the source you referred to does not even have the word "saint" used to refer to the thief.
Here is what it says in case you missed it:
Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria (385-412) wrote a Homily on the Crucifixion and the Good Thief, which is classic Coptic literature. In the Eastern Orthodox Church one of the hymns of Good Friday, commemorating the Crucifixion of Jesus Christ and his death at Golgotha, is entitled, The Good Thief (or The Wise Thief, Church Slavonic: Razboinika blagorazumnago), and speaks of how Christ granted Dismas Paradise. There are also several moving compositions of this hymn which are used by the Russians and form one of the highlights of the Matins service on Good Friday.
Hymns
"The Wise Thief didst Thou make worthy of Paradise, in a single moment, O Lord. By the wood of thy Cross illumine me as well, and save me."
Source
imikhail is going to school St. Basil the Great on baptism.
Show some more respect 3ashin matethaza2sh.
imikhail is going to school St. Basil the Great on baptism.
Show some more respect 3ashin matethaza2sh.
We do not die symbolically in baptism we die effectively in baptism. We put on a new nature, we are born again meaning that the old nature is dead. This cannot be accomplished symbolically.
To understand baptism in Orthodoxy, please read Comparative Theology by Pope Shenouda starting with P.17
I am not sure where have I shown disrespect ...
Grace allows our symbolic burial in the water to be treated as actual death. You can see a glimpse of this in the book you keep referring to - That's why I said you were parsing words. It was the short manner of your reply that was disrespectful.
It is an effective symbol of death. Are you arguing that St. Basil is wrong? Telling me to read one of Pope Shenouda's books isn't a way to make a point. Please read "Salvation in the Orthodox Concept" by Pope Shenouda, starting with page 34, to supplement Comparative Theology. Please read his book on the Priesthood. Please read all his books.
Grace allows our symbolic burial in the water to be treated as actual death. You can see a glimpse of this in the book you keep referring to -
Let's address the points you are making here So I can follow your argument, can you please elaborate as to what is an effective symbol? Is there an effective symbol and an ineffective symbol? Please give some scriptural references. No. I never said that.
An advice: When you quote one of the Fathers of the Church, you need to read what they wrote in context. Please, provide a reference to what St. Basil said so I can read the whole topic and in context, instead of one phrase. So, please provide a reference to the quote you provided, then I will address it. I was not trying to make a point. Rather I was trying to educate you. I have already done so. Thanks for the advice though. Hope you have read them yourself. Can you please show me where in the above statement does Pope Shenouda say that we die in baptism symbolically?
Cephas, it's nice that you think the wise thief is a saint. The fact is, as imikhail and LiD already stated the church does not recognize him as one. You are using the word saint in its broad sense and who can argue with that? Of course, everyone who enters paradise is a saint. Even the orthodoxwiki link that you provided notes that he was never canonized as a saint.
Tell me what you think of this
The text underneath the same icon says: Russian Orthodox icon of The Good Thief in Paradise (Moscow School, c. 1560).
You see the discrepancy. Unless we know what the inscription on the icon itself says, we cannot be sure if the Russians really call him a saint.
Here is what wikipedia mentions on his canonization:
Eastern Orthodox:
In the Eastern Orthodox Church, one of the hymns of Good Friday is entitled, The Good Thief (or The Wise Thief, Church Slavonic: Razboinika blagorazumnago), and speaks of how Christ granted Dismas Paradise.[8] There are several compositions of this hymn[9] which are used in the Russian Orthodox Church and form one of the highlights of the Matins service on Good Friday.
Latin Church:
The Catholic Church never formally canonized Saint Dismas, though he is regarded as a saint by virtue of Jesus saying he would be in Paradise, and by local church traditions.
The Oriental Tradition is the same as the Eastern and St Tawfilos called him the Good Thief.