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Comments
The church doesn't work like that. You have a confession father, use him. :)
CS
what are our values and morals supposed to be?
why offer another point of view if we already know our own? i mean y take one saint and base ours upon his? the church always tells us to withstand temptations, even small ones and to say no to anything that goes against our own morals... so why bother?
i still dont understand what the point of drinking is...
Hi SMS,
Your missing the point. This is a spiritual rule that your talking about not a dogma, it can change, if it was a dogma then st. Macarius wouldn't be a saint nor the monks in his monastry who gave the wine to him. The story points out that there was a time that people drank wine, this is not an isolated incident there are other similar stories in the desert fathers. I'm just using it as one source to prove that pre-islam egyptians drank wine.
My Bishop has told us there is nothing wrong with having a glass wine of with a meal.
You have to accept the rule is not an article of faith. It is a culture based spiritual rule not a dogma, it can change depending on the circumstances.
God bless,
CS
CS
lol, good observation wfhanna1
The reality is as time goes on we will always be coptic but we will be more american, canadian or australian and part of that is that people will embrace those cultures and they will embrace us.
You have chosen not to drink and that is a good decision but drinking itself is not wrong and perhaps can be practiced in moderation in very limited circumstances?
CS
i mean i understand that we were forced to follow the whole islam thing wiht no drinking and keep the girls inside the houses, dont breath in ur cup, etc etc ETC lol
but this is who we are now... right?
CS
Defender
My FoC tells me, even little foxes can eat up the whole farm, so even little alcohol can ruin our Spiritual and Physical life...
Defender
Defender
The church fathers have afirmed that a transferance of attributes occurs during the liturgy so that the bread and wine become body and blood but its physical form is still clearly bread and wine, or it at least it was the last time I looked at it. ;)
God bless you,
CS
Hi defender,
The church fathers have afirmed that a transferance of attributes occurs during the liturgy so that the bread and wine become body and blood but its physical form is still clearly bread and wine, or it at least it was the last time I looked at it. ;)
God bless you,
CS
I totally agree with CS
It is how you are brought up, it seems from the discussion that it is event devided over the issue. Your openions mainly come from how you are bprought up (me too). Now the obvious reason that alcohol is not EnCoUrAgEd in our church is because some people make a habit of it and drik heavely which can have bad long ter effects on the brain and the liver, BUT, there is nothing in church doctarine that states that drinking alcohol is [glow=red,2,300]NOT[/glow] allowed. It is up to the peson to choose, just like Celibacy (wrong spelling i think) some people choose not to drink, now this can be because they know they have wakness with alcohol, or just dont like it. The fact still remains that it is prohibited by the church.
And by the way alcohol in small amounts has medically proven to help the liver as it acts as a cycler for the liver by passing through it ( abit like fibers)
Every man/woman knows their weaknesses, if they know alcohol is one, then for spiritual benefit they should avoide it, on the other hand if it doesn't bother them in any way (honestly than I See nothing wrong with the moderate ocassional drink)
I believe a 10000000% that the bread and wine convert to Christ's Holy Body and Precious Blood, yet on this thread it seems like people are not really sure.
The reason that Holy Body and Precious Blood don't look diffrent after the convertion, is because if it looked like real Flesh would we eat it and if like real Blood would we drink it, so it's grace from our Lord that He allows us to eat His Holy Body and drink His Precious Blood and be seeing it with our physical eyes as Bread and as Wine.
At least that's what I think and plz correct me if I'm wrong.
God Bless
Defender
I asked my Father of Confession and he gae me a straight correct answer:
He said that Christ unites with the elements and this is how the elements become Christ's Body and Blood, the Most Precious and Most Holy, Holy of Holies. As for alcohol, there is surprisingly no alcohol in the wine used for the Liturgy and that's why in the "Dawret el Hamal", Abouna takes the wine smells it and let the others smell it, so that they would make sure there are no alcohol.
One more thing he said was: "People in the forum might be trying to make you doubt the Mystery of the Eucharist"
You guys wouldn't be doing that would u??
I don't think so.
Defender
CS
http://www.wpl.lib.oh.us/AntiSaloon/print/wine.html
Here's a quote from it on the Coptic, as well as Syrian and Latin Churches:
In the Roman Church the decision has been given ("De Defectibus," iv. 2, in the "Ritus Servandus" of the Tridentine Missal) that, while there is a valid sacrament when unfermented wine is consecrated, yet the celebrant of the Mass commits a grave violation of canonical law, unless there is extreme necessity for such consecration of fresh juice. St. Thomas was perhaps the first to condemn the use of freshlypressed juice, except in a case of necessity. A. Lehmkuhl in "Casus Conscientiae," 1907 (vol.ii, Case 34), holds that the use of unfermented wine in Mass is always valid, but never licit, except in extreme necessity.
In the Greek Church, as in the Roman, only in extreme necessity may the juice of grapes freshly pressed for the purpose be used in the Eucharist.
The Coptic, Abyssinian, Nestorian, and Armenian churches use only fermented wine, though there is evidence that in the Abyssinian Church the juice of raisins, washed Saturday night by monks and pressed Sunday morning, is sometimes given bv the priests to the communicants, before fermentation has begun or proceeded very far. Coptic sacramental wine has shown, under analysis, a considerable alcoholic content, in one instance as high, as 7 per cent. The following recipe for the making of Coptic sacramental wine has been received verbatim from the Coptic priest of Khartum (April 8, 1914) :
Gather dried grapes [raisins]. Put them in water (under water] for three days. Place the raisins, which have now become full grapes, under a native wine-press, and squeeze into a native bottle [and] any water left in the vessel in which the raisins were first placed. Seal the bottle, and place under the ground for forty days. Then use for Church purposes only.
Again, let me re-iterate that there cannot be sin in an inanimate object. Sin is in the person who intends to over-drink, not in the wine itself. If one drinks to get intoxicated, he or she is at fault.
About the Body and Blood of Christ in Holy Qurbono, it is necessary to use Western Scholastic language to clear up confusion. Philosophically speaking, "Substance" is the nature of an object. "Accidents" are the remaining non-essentials. The "Substance" of bread and wine are no longer bread and wine after the Consecration/Invocation but become the Body and Blood of Jesus. The "Accidents," taste, smell, things we sense, color, etc. remain. This is because what is REAL is not the physical, but the meta-physical (spiritual). This changing of substance is the Mystery of Faith. We cannot explain how the Holy Spirit changes the "substance" thru the priest, that is the Mystery of Faith. We can only acknowledge that this change occurs.
Even though the Orthodox Church does not define or term the Mystery, most scholars and bishops agree that the term Roman Catholic term "transubstantiation" best describes what is taking place.
On indulgences, granting indulgence is a very pious custom and fitting; it is the SELLING of indulgences that is forbidden. On that note, selling of any blessing is forbidden. For example, I may sell an icon of Christ, but I may not add on to the price because it was blessed by Father.
Defender
Scientifically drinking wine agrivates digestive problems like hyper-acidity which can be caused by a lack of sleep so I'm not sure how your rationalising that, can you elaborate further?
I used to get that when I was fasting but I'd never drink alcohol to fix it. ???
However you point goes to show a legitimate use of alcohol. ;)
God bless,
CS
I think that yor FoC knows you best and will give you the best advise, maybe he knows something about you (family history, age, personality, etc.) or is preparing you for some higher calling? This doesn't mean that the prohibition extends to everyone. Also, how old are you, this may play into why Father told you not to drink.
i mean no offense by any of my comments, i have been told that sometimes i come off as rude at other websites.
God Bless!
Mart Mariam, pray for us!
Mar Thoma Sleeha, pray for us!
Mar Gregorios, pray for us!
I disagree with drinking in the first place, no matter how much,
[glow=red,2,300]My FoC tells me, even little foxes can eat up the whole farm, so even little alcohol can ruin our Spiritual and Physical life...[/glow]
Defender
i still dont understand y anybody would want to drink? regardless of 'health' issues or whatever, what is the point of drinking?
i can understand the scenario of being at a wedding were ie, champagne is being served, but y not stick to water or soda? sprite is always a good alternative... or how about those temples? :P
Ok, I am totally against alcohol for fun, God created alcohol but we abused it, just like God created iron yet we took the iron and made guns and knives to slaughter each other. If alcohol is used for medical purposes then it's Ok unless it gets you drunk. Because pain is better than everlasting pain!! Also the story of St. Paul and St. Timothy prooves my point that only used for medical purposes, and I don't think St. Timothy ever got drunk from it...
Defender
CS
Not drinking is not mentioned anywhere in a church offical statement BUT it really goes down to the person and his/her specific opionion on drinking.
At least that is the conclusion i came up with from this thread if i am wrong let me know
- Chris