marmar we know there is a play thats a hardcore fact the debate now is weither or not that play has been played in the church or if it was banned that is what we trying to find out
You guys wanna talk credibility...read again who is the one who said that news, as wasim translated "Maher Abd El wahed the highest judge in the country basiclly the higest seat in the law of egyptMaher Abd El wahed the highest judge in the country basiclly the higest seat in the law of egypt" that's how you know the info is credible...so ya...i guess u can't argue that...I know the church said it was played...but I guess what he means is that normal people didn't even see it...or even any of the muslims...so still THANK GOD that He heard our cries and this has settled down.
You guys wanna talk credibility...read again who is the one who said that news, as wasim translated "Maher Abd El wahed the highest judge in the country basiclly the higest seat in the law of egyptMaher Abd El wahed the highest judge in the country basiclly the higest seat in the law of egypt" that's how you know the info is credible...so ya...i guess u can't argue that...
Actually, you can; al-ahram can attempt quoting the president of the United States even, and their news articles would still have no credibility since they have explicitly contradicted themselves on the matter – or, you can alternatively assume that they did in fact correctly quote a highly regarded figure, and conclude that such a figure lied in his admission. You have two options to follow:
a) Discard anything al-ahram says on the basis they are an untrustworthy source of information. b) Assume the truth of al-ahram, and thence discard one of the two respected parties’ reported admissions or conclusions on the basis that they’re in contradiction and hence only one is in truth: a) The judge, or b) the Church.
I know the church said it was played...but I guess what he means is that normal people didn't even see it...or even any of the muslims...
This is what I don’t like. According to both you and Wasim, the article says outright that the play was never performed; this is a very different thing to saying that the general public was not exposed to it, or that they never witnessed it, or that the Muslims claiming to have seen it, were in fact liars. I have had others read the Arabic for me, and they confirmed that the article does in fact claim that the play was never performed.
It is best not to try and twist the matter; just wait for an official word from the Church. A lot of people do not approach internet forums as cautiously as they should, and in their gullibility take what is said at face value – let us not spread misinformation, and let us be careful about what we say especially on matters as sensitive as this.
well technically thats all i have until abouna says something... but what i meant is that if the same word has been out to other people through different ways, there might have been a chance it was right...
People shouldn't just exposit "what they have" on such a significant matter, simply because it's "all that they have." Wait until the Church officially speaks on the matter. I do not even think that the local parish priest is in a position to speak officially on such a matter, unless he has heard directly from the local Bishop.
Furthermore, you do not know the source of other people's hearsay. Maybe their source is al-ahram. Maybe it's another. The fact remains al-ahram, many secular articles, as well as articles advocated by Coptic sources, have reported explicit or implicit admissions from the Church that the play was performed; what has been denied or at least charged with suspicion is this alleged DVD, and the contents therein.
His Grace Bishop Anba Daniel wrote a letter to the ambassador of Egypt. In this letter, he too presumes that the Pope admitted to the existence of such a play:
The aim of the Church’s play was to enlighten our congregation, and to confirm their faith. Do we blame the Church for such an action? In addition, His Holiness and the Melli Council had reviewed this play, and they issued a report stating that there was nothing wrong with the play. What is really astonishing is that the Egyptian media totally ignored that report.
His Holiness Bishop Yo2annes, Pope Shenouda's secretary, was with us yesterday while we were electing two new Priests for our new church....
He told us that forget all what is said....he knows everything about it (as do all the Holy Synod) but he cannot and will not say anything because there are things about this issue that cannot be said. But he told us:
1) As of November 4, 2005, things are winding down rapidly, but not over yet...
2) The church has been through much worse issues, so this is an itch compared to it...
3) PRAY for the church's safety...and do not assume anything from the church's or Egypt's actions....because no one has the complete picture....
As they say: Some things are best left unsaid, for the sake of the church and her children.
Iqbal, rf_Zachari, both of you were absolutely right about what was written in Al-Ahram newspaper before.
In the Weekly - Ahram in English, it completely changed its view 180 degrees, blaming HH Pope Shenoud and the Copts for what had happened in Alexandria before. You can read the article in this website:
you know what guys i just bascilly gave up on this issue right now things are winning down as rf said in his post so lets just let things cool down on there and if we hear news from a VERY TRUSTED source such as abouna or a Pope message then post that and we will discuss it how does that sound??
Good idea. I believe His Grace Bishop Anba Daniel, who is quoted in my last post in this thread, is a most reliable source and Church authority. He has spoken regarding the Pope and the Synod, and he can surely be trusted.
Furthermore, there is a document on the official website of His Grace Bishop Anba Youssef, which is attributed to the Laity Council of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria, and which states:
The church has verified that this play was performed within the church premises, 2 years ago, and for one day only, in contribution to the campaign launched against terrorism. It was not attended by any Moslem and was met with no opposition then. To arouse an upheaval at the present is to look for a reason to break up the national unity which the Christians have been careful to preserve in spite of all the derision and scorn directed by the Mass Media, against their faith and dogma.
Comments
a) Discard anything al-ahram says on the basis they are an untrustworthy source of information.
b) Assume the truth of al-ahram, and thence discard one of the two respected parties’ reported admissions or conclusions on the basis that they’re in contradiction and hence only one is in truth: a) The judge, or b) the Church. This is what I don’t like. According to both you and Wasim, the article says outright that the play was never performed; this is a very different thing to saying that the general public was not exposed to it, or that they never witnessed it, or that the Muslims claiming to have seen it, were in fact liars. I have had others read the Arabic for me, and they confirmed that the article does in fact claim that the play was never performed.
It is best not to try and twist the matter; just wait for an official word from the Church. A lot of people do not approach internet forums as cautiously as they should, and in their gullibility take what is said at face value – let us not spread misinformation, and let us be careful about what we say especially on matters as sensitive as this.
Furthermore, you do not know the source of other people's hearsay. Maybe their source is al-ahram. Maybe it's another. The fact remains al-ahram, many secular articles, as well as articles advocated by Coptic sources, have reported explicit or implicit admissions from the Church that the play was performed; what has been denied or at least charged with suspicion is this alleged DVD, and the contents therein.
im just going to wait and see what abouna or anba david say about this...
The aim of the Church’s play was to enlighten our congregation, and to confirm their faith. Do we blame the Church for such an action? In addition, His Holiness and the Melli Council had reviewed this play, and they issued a report stating that there was nothing wrong with the play. What is really astonishing is that the Egyptian media totally ignored that report.
The entirety of this letter can be read here: http://www.coptic.org.au/uploads/cb3531f5-a266-257c.pdf
His Holiness Bishop Yo2annes, Pope Shenouda's secretary, was with us yesterday while we were electing two new Priests for our new church....
He told us that forget all what is said....he knows everything about it (as do all the Holy Synod) but he cannot and will not say anything because there are things about this issue that cannot be said. But he told us:
1) As of November 4, 2005, things are winding down rapidly, but not over yet...
2) The church has been through much worse issues, so this is an itch compared to it...
3) PRAY for the church's safety...and do not assume anything from the church's or Egypt's actions....because no one has the complete picture....
As they say: Some things are best left unsaid, for the sake of the church and her children.
In HIS Name,
RFZ
In the Weekly - Ahram in English, it completely changed its view 180 degrees, blaming HH Pope Shenoud and the Copts for what had happened in Alexandria before. You can read the article in this website:
http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2005/767/eg11.htm
how does that sound??
Furthermore, there is a document on the official website of His Grace Bishop Anba Youssef, which is attributed to the Laity Council of the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria, and which states: Source: http://suscopts.org/press/alexandria_en.html