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  • i agree it could be beaten by sever will, determination and instead of just one person praying about it now would be two people praying about. I guess it really goes back to your FOC and how close you are to that person and if you know if he can help or not. In some cases he could and in others he can't
  • Hi Guys,

    I have to say that Confession is a sacrament, like the Eucharist so it is always helpful, the only problem occurs when we go in with the wrong attitude (in humble my experience). I went through a long period of time when I had a spiritual slumber and I only got out of it after confession for years and years I kept telling myself that my father never understod my situation or that I knew better than him or something like that...

    In reality it comes down to this, if we try and obey God, He helps us and the most perfect show of obedience to God is in confession because no one can say they obey the unseen God if they don't their confession father who is their representative that has the gift of granting absolution.

    I have a post I made on a thread on another board that I made a while ago check it out:

    http://www.coptichymns.net/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&p=16269&highlight=#16269

    The fathers always taught that we should find a father of confession that we feel comfortable with and we should stick with them. If you find that you don't have a choice of priests then you'll have to make do with what you have. I know what the feeling is like because I've been a situation far worse than that. I urge everyone to give it another try but remember submission, which isn't just saying God, I submit to you and do whatever you say. Its far more than that because submission in truth is an entry way into faith. No man who has faith can fail.

    God bless,

    CS
  • HEY GUYS WE GOT TO 11 FLIPPIN PAGES!!!!!


    Isn't that awesome??

    Anywayz, sometimes I feel worried about confessing because you tell someone all ur secrets and usually this someone is very close to God so he didn't go through this experience u kno what I mean??


    Defender
  • hey before that person gets close to God he must have gone through some stuff spots too
    the theory of experience that our parents tell us about does exist sometimes LOL
  • Hahaha, that is SO true Wasim. lol ;)


    sleepy
  • thats not what im saying CS. i have went through that stage as well. what i am saying is that sometimes the FOC is not tough enough for you, you know what i mean?
  • tough enough? usually people run away from their FOC because they are over tough and don't understand them
  • Thats a hard one but I don't think I'd criticise any FOC for not being tough enough. From the sayings of the desert fathers:

    A brother said to Arsenius, "what shall I do abba? my thoughts trouble me, telling me, you cannot fast, nor work nor visit the sick, because these things are selfish." He saw that the devil put these things in his mind and said, "Go, eat, drink and sleep, only do not leave your cell; remember that staying in the cell is what keeps a monk on the right path."

    I know this sounds like a harsh comment but you have to implicitly obey your confession father, remember the story of St. John the short and the stick? Who would have thought it would have become a tree. What you have to remember is that every saint started out as a sinner like you and me and the devil stops us from making progress by saying things like, abouna isn't hard enough on you. This is a trick of satan as happened to the monk above, when the devil gave him thoughts and his father came back and said stay in your cell to tell him to ignore those thoughts and keep following my instructions. There is nothing more important than following a spiritual rule or getting instructions from your father and making yourself accountable when you don't follow them. These include things like praying the agpeya or whatever your father has told you to do everyday.

    H.H. says that all we should do is if we have a sin rather that blame ourselves or point a finger (even if you don't mean it like that) this is like what adam and eve did in the garden; stand before God and say, no excuses, Lord, I'm weak and unless You help me, I can't do this. Then say this every morning and every night about every weakness and every sin and God will help you. As ironic as this sounds, this is the essence of the life of the desert fathers. By living in the desert in a cave they went to a place where they wanted to have no excuses for sinning and in this way and though being accountable they made progress.

    Its like this. At home you may have brothers or sisters and if one does somthing to the other they make excuses like they were being annoying or they started it. If you work for a business and you are an accountant for example and you make a numerical error, you can't point fingers, they will come to you and say, this is your account and your fault. Its like exposing a wound to a doctor for healing.

    Lots of people wonder how to hate sin and its a simple as standing before God in weakness and saying God I can't do this without you.

    The battle with sin is actually a battle with pride we can't help but feel that we can quell sin through fasting or prayer, which is false. It really happens because God sees us struggling in fasting and prayer in weakness like a wounded creature, hurt by sin so He heals us. In this way through accountability God sees that we understand how weak we are and our honesty before Him and He heals us if we are patient and don't look left or right to blame but say Lord I leave the delegation of blame to you like we say in psalm 51, against you, you only have I sinned, not against our own judgement.

    By being accountable and not blaming others as there is no excuse for sin because we were baptised into Christ and from the minute we go into that font we have every thing we need never to sin again.

    I hope this helps and if I have misunderstood or if you are unsure please feel free to ask a question or even make a criticim.

    God bless,

    CS
  • You should always go to someone you feel comfortable talking to. Someone who won't make you feel like you have a lot of pressure on you, so for this one, I agree with egyprincess.

    sleepy
  • [quote author=egyprincess link=board=1;threadid=295;start=150#msg3418 date=1086921745]
    thats not what im saying CS. i have went through that stage as well. what i am saying is that sometimes the FOC is not tough enough for you, you know what i mean?

    [quote author=sleepymusician link=board=1;threadid=295;start=150#msg3442 date=1086960658]
    You should always go to someone you feel comfortable talking to. Someone who won't make you feel like you have a lot of pressure on you, so for this one, I agree with egyprincess.

    sleepy

    Hi Sleepy,

    Are you sure that you guys are thinking on the same wavelength?

    God bless,

    CS
  • [quote author=Wasim link=board=1;threadid=295;start=150#msg3359 date=1086897077]
    i agree it could be beaten by sever will, determination and instead of just one person praying about it now would be two people praying about. I guess it really goes back to your FOC and how close you are to that person and if you know if he can help or not. In some cases he could and in others he can't

    I think this is the wavelength that Sleepy was going for
    Wasim posted that not egyprincess ;D
    but it is ok we all friends here right? :D
  • guys, i am so lost now. help ???
  • ye sim kinda lsot now too... howd get to FOC's ?? ... woaa.. ok backtrack i tohught we were tlakin bout guys.... lol
  • Youst, it's all cool!!

    LOL!

    I think every one of us hates starting new threads so we just go on in the same one!
  • Ok to back track i think we were talking about going to your FOC to help you with getting over that boy then as most arabs got off on a tanget about FOC and how much help they could be and how tough they should be then off to saints and monks and how tough their father (spiritual that is) and that is where we are right now
  • [quote author=Wasim link=board=1;threadid=295;start=150#msg3447 date=1086967456]
    [quote author=Wasim link=board=1;threadid=295;start=150#msg3359 date=1086897077]
    i agree it could be beaten by sever will, determination and instead of just one person praying about it now would be two people praying about. I guess it really goes back to your FOC and how close you are to that person and if you know if he can help or not. In some cases he could and in others he can't


    I think this is the wavelength that Sleepy was going for
    Wasim posted that not egyprincess ;D
    but it is ok we all friends here right? :D


    Hi guys,

    I know this is flogging a dead horse but.... this is not correct! This sin of sexual desire is NOT fixed by will, that is Satans greatest and best trick because it makes our efforts futile. He likes to make us think that beating this depends on our will but it doesn't in any way whatsoever and God keeps letting us get defeated INTENTIONALLY to allow us to learn that.

    I think this probably rises from a misconception we get when we see that monks are holy and they fast and pray a lot. WRONG! The sin of sexual immorality is VERY unique among sins. IT CANNOT BE BEATEN BY ANY HUMAN WILL OR EFFORT AND THE SAINT AND THEIR HUNDREDS OF DAYS FASTING AND PRAYER EACH YEAR ARE WITNESS TO THAT!

    The truth is that sexual immorality is not a battle with the sexual sin, it is a battle with pride. In the lives of the saints they only got victory from this sin after days of fasting and prayer when they are totally exhausted and think that they can't go on, God surprises them by giving it to them contrary to their state. God does this so that no man can boast and say that they defeated the sexual sin by prayer or fasting but through His mercy alone.

    Our fathers the monks, nuns and saints also found that as quickly as the gift comes it disappears because they still in their concience, will, or heart believe that they get the gift of chastity from something they did. God allows us to fall again and again and again until we finally understand the ability to beat list is his gift to give and not an achievement of our efforts. One priest put it by saying that our efforts that make us work so hard and are totally worthless soften God's heart so He gives it to us but our works do not fix the problem, it cannot be fixed by any human effort or guidance or advice.

    Also with regards to will, the devil loves to trick us by saying if you willed it you could do it. This is a lie. The devil loves making us depend on our will but the truth is that our will is totally insufficient for this battle. Making us will is a job of the Holy Spirit. This is a hidden mysterious work that God does, not us! See Philippians 2:13 that says God alone makes us both will AND work, this is not the result of human effort.

    If we're wondering about FOCs, I have a very simple way of functioning. I give advice and refer to a father of confession, if someone has a doubt I try and correct it. The FOC is an integral part of someones ability to beat sexual sins, without it your just beating your head off a wall. You go to communicate your problems in a sacramental environment to the Lord, even if for no other reason. I feel it is important to point out that no father or saint has ever made the strictness of a father in confession a criteria for whether or not they are suitable for us and it isn't.

    These thoughts are doubts the devil sends us because he sees us making progress and gets jealous. The problems in my spiritual life can't be traced to my FOC, they are traced back to me alone becuase I didn't trust his advice and doubted it because I may have assumed something incorrect like I need to make myself stop sinning by duress which is utterly incorrect. Purity is God's gift given to the humble, it is not the result of effort, prayer or will.

    It takes hermit saints around 15 years to beat the sin (and they don't beat the sin, the war stops) God makes it that way intentionally so we don't boast about works which softens God's heart to mercy but have no ability to conquer sin. As a man I am responsible for putting in the effort but God alone is responsible for the sucess. If it was about effort alone then buhddits would be the opitome of holiness. If it was about grace alone then we'd never sin after leaving the baptismal font. There is union of effort to grace but there is no correlation because works and purification. Purity is God's gift, not a human effort.

    God bless you all,

    CS
  • well i agree it is not totally depending on our will but part of it even a small part of it depend on us. I know how you talked about submission or somebody talked about submission but there is a saying (i am not sure if it is a coptic saying or just an arab (a.k.a muslim saying)) you try and i will help you (as7ah ya ebn weh anah as7ah ma3ak)
  • ::scratching head:: :-\
    I'm not sure where exactly this thread took a turn... but I must say, Wasim and CS, you guys lost me... quite completely. ???
  • me too... ???
  • [quote author=Wasim link=board=1;threadid=295;start=165#msg3564 date=1087099276]well i agree it is not totally depending on our will but part of it even a small part of it depend on us. I know how you talked about submission or somebody talked about submission but there is a saying (i am not sure if it is a coptic saying or just an arab (a.k.a muslim saying)) you try and i will help you (as7ah ya ebn weh anah as7ah ma3ak)

    Hi Wasim,

    I agree that there is human effort put into fighting sexual lusts but the teaching of the desert fathers is that they have no ability to combat sexual immorality in anyway whatsoever. We struggle, fast and pray as a sign of love to God to show Him how much we want to be pure for Him but our efforts have no ability to achieve that end, God in His mercy sees us fighting a losing battle and grants purity to us.

    One of the fathers said blessed is the man who fasts to mortify his flesh and prays continually and thinks they have no bearing on his ability to be pure. That is the only state a person can be in to recieve the grace of sexual purity, the effort goes to showing God how keen we are to recieve the gift of purity but it can't ever achieve that end and no one can ever get there by that means.

    Submission is important in this for a few reasons. An example is that Fr Matthew the poor said that faith is a virtue and not a grace only because it involves the human will and to the extent that we submit it. Also if you follow the fathers St. John Climacus said that sumbmission is the tomb of the will and the resurrection of humility. Our will has to be utterly extinguished for us to be able to achieve that end, I know this is a hard point to understand but I'll try and explain it...

    If God calls us to repent does He ask us to do it as an act of human will or divine will? To be accurate it cannot be an act of self will because a man who repents in that way may do so because he is afraid of hell or because we feel bad because of something we did. On its own these things are not correct, the call to repentance must be an invatation of the Holy Spirit who works to make us will as He wills. This is the whole point of faith, it something that helps us transcend all we know and sense and without that we can't repent. In faith we can see God and ask Him for forgivness but if we don't lay down our will in faith we can't repent. faith dictates to the mind and senses how we should think and preceive. It is not an act of the mind where we disillusion ourselves to believe that we have God who loves us and He lives in a heaven with angels, its much more its actually a place where a person can see, hear and touch God and it is born as St. John Climacus said by laying down the human will, it is a submission not an intellectual effort. You can't repent as an act of self will and in the same way no self willed person will ever be pure.

    Please note that God never lets any saint think that any of their efforts went anyway to helping them be pure. Effort is involved by only to arouse God to pity us and give it to us. Priests will tell you the only time people get purity is when they have totally given up and God does that on purpose. Its not like studing for an exam where you read information and use it, God made it so that there is no confusion in this matter, it is totally different from all other examples, just like St. Simon lifting the mountain, it is a miracle. That is the teaching of the desert fathers. Sexual purity is not a work, its a miracle.

    To everyone who is confused, I apologise but I just wanted to point out that God gives us weakness to show us we need Him and we struggle because we don't know how to seek Him. I saw some people were disputing the efficacy of a FOC in these matters and I feel quite stongly that it is wrong to think that way. You will never be granted a gift like this without non-judgemental obedience. St. John didn't judge when told to water a stick or abraham when he was told to kill his son. In the same way we shouldn't judge our FOC's advice, the only issue is if we feel we can't be open and honest with them. There are many reasons for why this is important to this thread.

    God bless,

    CS
  • Awesome post! ;D
  • You'll see me posting and following a very distinct pattern that I learned from the desert fathers.

    1) get a FOC
    2) submit to him with your whole being, mind, body and senses
    3) follow his commands

    this is the basis for the monastic life and also the basis for our own chirstian life. Sexual temptation is not over come by fighting but by submission. It is not for us to take this on as a battle the we ourselves do and also if you analyse asthetic labours and what the fathers advise, you'll agree that these measures limit sin but can't extinguish it.

    So back to my original point, submit, submit submit. This is the first virtue of the spiritual life and an entry way into all other virtues and without having it to some extent you can't be considered a christian and sin will defeat you continually.

    God bless,

    CS
  • [quote author=CopticSoldier
    Hi guys,

    I know this is flogging a dead horse but.... this is not correct! This sin of sexual desire is NOT fixed by will, that is Satans greatest and best trick because it makes our efforts futile. He likes to make us think that beating this depends on our will but it doesn't in any way whatsoever and God keeps letting us get defeated INTENTIONALLY to allow us to learn that.

    CS

    by will i ment that we have to not want the sin. sometimes (pointing fingers at myself) we like the sin and dont want to stop.

    we always need God's help to stop something, but we need to take the first step.

    i hope that cleared things up
  • i got one thing to say: 12 pages of more repetition
    can we conclude this
    PLZZZZZZZZZZ for the love of GOD! ?
  • its deffinately not repition... ive rearned and beinifited so much... thanks guys...
  • can we still conclude this
    lol
    i just wanted to say CONGRATS.... its 12 pages!
    anywayz... so should the conclusion concern submission, FOC's, determination etc.. someone, nyone, plz?
  • HAHA, SMS, I'm sure ur more than fed up with dating!!!


    K, if no one has anymore to say in the next 24 hours we'll call it a thread ;) and plz, Youst, lock the thread after the 24 hours!!!



    Defender
  • [quote author=egyprincess link=board=1;threadid=295;start=165#msg3710 date=1087232788]
    [quote author=CopticSoldier
    Hi guys,

    I know this is flogging a dead horse but.... this is not correct! This sin of sexual desire is NOT fixed by will, that is Satans greatest and best trick because it makes our efforts futile. He likes to make us think that beating this depends on our will but it doesn't in any way whatsoever and God keeps letting us get defeated INTENTIONALLY to allow us to learn that.

    CS

    by will i ment that we have to not want the sin. sometimes (pointing fingers at myself) we like the sin and dont want to stop.

    we always need God's help to stop something, but we need to take the first step.

    i hope that cleared things up


    Hi egyprincess,

    I apologise I haven't mentioned this yet. Hating sin is not a work also, it is a grace. It also comes from submission. When we experience the love of God in a profound way we start to treasure the relationship we have with Him. In that environment we see the things that cut communion with God off we start to submit to God and pray about them continually every prayer time. Through this God works in us to CREATE hatred of sin as a natural extension of love for Him. I have to point this out, all virtue be it love, hate, faith, humilty, lust, zeal comes from God in submission. That is why submission and your FOC is soooooo important.

    Also the first step is not one we make, God calls us to repentance, it is our job to respond not to act and the response is submission. It is God who grants both the begining and middle and end of every good, not us. We respond to God's calls to allow Him to instill good in us, the good God is seeking like hating sin no longer exists in our nature, we need Him to start perform and finish every good work in us, our fallen nature needs this.

    I hope that is clearer?

    Also sexually immoral feelings are created by God to teach us how to love one another, this is a weird thing but through the sexual function in our bodies and how it makes us look at people we can develop 2 opinions:

    1. Members of the opposite sex are objects for my pleasure.
    2. Members of the opposite sex are spiritual beings and these feelings are inappropriate.

    This is actually part of the development God does in us to teach us the value of both sexuality and the opposite sex and its impact is that we learn how to truly love others through this and it is something very natural that God does to allow us to prepare us for pure married life. Through temptation God opens us up so we can learn how to love others properly without being self seeking and lustful. If you feel this temptation don't worry or be disturbed or think your unclean. God does all these things in His wisdom to help us become mature and responsible Christians who can lead pure communal lives with one another.

    God bless,

    CS
  • one last question.. maybe... should i still talk to him.. or is it better to stay away....
  • What do you know, in your heart of hearts is right?
    If you won't be affected, keep the friendship, it's up to you, but if this will make you fall into sin, stay away. It's all up to you though. ;)


    sleepy
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