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Neknai o Panoti
How many different versions of 'neknai o panoti' are there? A friend told me there are three different ways of saying it. Is this true? And if so, where can i get hymn lesson recordings or sound recordings for it? (I could only find one version of neknai o panoti on this site)
Any help would be appreciated, thanks.
Any help would be appreciated, thanks.
Comments
(its on the bottom by Cantor Faheem Girgis)
The third one is kiahky which is here by the same cantor: http://www.coptichymns.net/module-hymns-catview-pid-89.html
Enjoy learning!
GB
Tony
God Bless You.
Yes there are 3 ways of saying it. One is the morning doxology tune which is the one everyone knows. The second is a unique tune which you will find here: http://www.coptichymns.net/module-hymns-catview-pid-98.html
(its on the bottom by Cantor Faheem Girgis)
The third one is kiahky which is here by the same cantor: http://www.coptichymns.net/module-hymns-catview-pid-89.html
Enjoy learning!
GB
Tony
Notice the third tune sounds close to shashf ensop for kiahk and that he is the only cantor to record this tune. Lovely tune though
+mahraeel+
efaiai `nje penjin[icbw `nte }metrem`n<ymi> `cse `n]joc je ]metercaji etcohi pe Panou] `m`vry][/coptic] "Banouti" [coptic]qen ]rem`nAggeli`a[/coptic]
As increasing is our learning of the Coptic language I should say that the correct pronunciation is "[coptic]Panou][/coptic]" like "Banouti" in English
[coptic]]metrem`n<ymi `mmontaf `nou`qrwou etoi `m`vry][/coptic] "p" [coptic]qen ]rem`nAggelia[/coptic]
The coptic doesn't have a sound which is like "p" in the English
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
[coptic]Namenra] tyrou>
efaiai `nje penjin[icbw `nte }metrem`n<ymi> `cse `n]joc je ]metercaji etcohi pe Panou] `m`vry][/coptic] "Banouti" [coptic]qen ]rem`nAggeli`a[/coptic]
As increasing is our learning of the Coptic language I should say that the correct pronunciation is "[coptic]Panou][/coptic]" like "Banouti" in English
[coptic]]metrem`n<ymi `mmontaf `nou`qrwou etoi `m`vry][/coptic] "p" [coptic]qen ]rem`nAggelia[/coptic]
The coptic doesn't have a sound which is like "p" in the English
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
Aren't you referring to the Old boharic rules? From what i know, we do not use these rules in our church services; though it might be the most accurate. The church currently uses the Greco-Bohairic dialect which is relatively recent and according to these rules, i believe it is pronounced "P."
On a side note i think it makes more sense that it is pronunced "P." The reason being is that the coptic language was formed out of the demotic and greek language. The "pi" is originally from the greek language and was pronounced "P." It doesn't really make sense to change it to "B." Perhaps you will share some more of your knowledge on the subject...
GB
Tony
Aren't you referring to the Old boharic rules? From what i know, we do not use these rules in our church services; though it might be the most accurate. The church currently uses the Greco-Bohairic dialect which is relatively recent and according to these rules, i believe it is pronounced "P."
On a side note i think it makes more sense that it is pronunced "P." The reason being is that the coptic language was formed out of the demotic and greek language. The "pi" is originally from the greek language and was pronounced "P." It doesn't really make sense to change it to "B." Perhaps you will share some more of your knowledge on the subject...
GB
Tony
let me say somthing......
the Coptic language was based on the Greek language in letters and writing bases, but not pronunciation bases!!! ophadece can correct me if i am wrong, but this is what i have learned and what is taught in most of the coptic language books. technically speaking our coptic language is basically the old Egyptian language before coptic IN greek letters.
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=7189.msg95335#msg95335 date=1223596980]
Aren't you referring to the Old boharic rules? From what i know, we do not use these rules in our church services; though it might be the most accurate. The church currently uses the Greco-Bohairic dialect which is relatively recent and according to these rules, i believe it is pronounced "P."
On a side note i think it makes more sense that it is pronunced "P." The reason being is that the coptic language was formed out of the demotic and greek language. The "pi" is originally from the greek language and was pronounced "P." It doesn't really make sense to change it to "B." Perhaps you will share some more of your knowledge on the subject...
GB
Tony
let me say somthing......
the Coptic language was based on the Greek language in letters and writing bases, but not pronunciation bases!!! ophadece can correct me if i am wrong, but this is what i have learned and what is taught in most of the coptic language books. technically speaking our coptic language is basically the old Egyptian language before coptic IN greek letters.
I am aware of this but i would still like to point out that, now that the pronounciation scheme has changed, it doesnt make sense to try to bring back the old boharic. I never stepped into a church that prays in this dialect. I just think its best to stay consistent to what we have now.
Tony
[quote author=minagir link=topic=7189.msg95342#msg95342 date=1223605373]
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=7189.msg95335#msg95335 date=1223596980]
Aren't you referring to the Old boharic rules? From what i know, we do not use these rules in our church services; though it might be the most accurate. The church currently uses the Greco-Bohairic dialect which is relatively recent and according to these rules, i believe it is pronounced "P."
On a side note i think it makes more sense that it is pronunced "P." The reason being is that the coptic language was formed out of the demotic and greek language. The "pi" is originally from the greek language and was pronounced "P." It doesn't really make sense to change it to "B." Perhaps you will share some more of your knowledge on the subject...
GB
Tony
let me say somthing......
the Coptic language was based on the Greek language in letters and writing bases, but not pronunciation bases!!! ophadece can correct me if i am wrong, but this is what i have learned and what is taught in most of the coptic language books. technically speaking our coptic language is basically the old Egyptian language before coptic IN greek letters.
I am aware of this but i would still like to point out that, now that the pronounciation scheme has changed, it doesnt make sense to try to bring back the old boharic. I never stepped into a church that prays in this dialect. I just think its best to stay consistent to what we have now.
Tony
you should pray with abouna Shenouda Maher....great liturgy it was...
oukouji `mmoust@ aha aicaji ehryi ejwc `n]acpi `mPohairy `nabac> alla `cse an `ntenmou] eroc `napac ie `mberi e;be ouon `nlwiji ete vai pe ]acpi `nrem`n<ymi `m`vry] an ]acpi `mmetOueinin ai]pouoi eneh> loipon pi`qrwou[/coptic] "b" [coptic]afohi `mpairy] nem nigenea aucini - `ngenecic paiswlh P sauercaji `mmof hwc [/coptic]"b"[coptic]> alla ]nou tefercaji acsib] qen oumetOueinin e[/coptic] "p"
A small point: yes I was talking about the Bohairic dialect of old, but it is not right that we call it of old or modern for one reason which is that the Coptic language unlike the Greek language never evolved, therefore the sound "b" stayed like it was with generations passing - originally the letter P used to be pronounced like "b", but now its pronunciation changed in Greek to "p"
[coptic]`cse `ntencaji je niercaji `cnau aiswpi `nouai> alla ]metOueinin acsib] para nigenea[/coptic]
We should say that both the pronunciations were one, but the Greek changed through the ages
[coptic]]nou tenek`klyci`a `cer`,rac;e `nacpi ete ;ai te an ]metrem`n<ymi `mmyi ie ]metOueinin `mmyi alla `cqent e]mah`cnou][/coptic]
Now our church uses a dialect which is neither the true Coptic or the true Greek but closer to the second
[coptic]Myna@ `kouwhem `ncaji hijen Piouyb Senou] Maher@ my ouontak `nlitourgia `mmetrem`n<ymi qen tef`cmy?[/coptic]
Mina: you keep talking about Fr. Shenouda Maher; do you have a Liturgy in Coptic in his voice?
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
[coptic]Myna@ `kouwhem `ncaji hijen Piouyb Senou] Maher@ my ouontak `nlitourgia `mmetrem`n<ymi qen tef`cmy?[/coptic]
Mina: you keep talking about Fr. Shenouda Maher; do you have a Liturgy in Coptic in his voice?
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
sorry. no.
i just remember once with him a LONG time ago when i i wasn't even that knowledgeable about all of this. at the time, i didn't even knew that it was him praying....
Tony
After all, its just a language; nothing more than that.
i kind of disagree with that....even thoo i know ophadece will disagree with what i'll say.
you can't say coptic is just a language NOW. yes, that apply when it was used as one, but now it doesn't. right now "coptic" is a heritage. if it's a language, why not we all speak it??!!
if you say it's a language you will not be able to back up your statment with a real current fact. if it's a language, your language, then speak it. but wait...you don't....I don't. not even 80% of copts do. then why do you say it's a language?!!!. i just worry about the fact the people will hold this as an "unanswered" statment towards the coptic church.
qen pisorp@ Myna ]ka] an ejen ou ]na]ma] an nemak? Qen oume;myi ]meu`i je ]]ma] nemak ejen vyetafjoc[/coptic]
Firstly; Mina I don't understand on what will I not agree with you? In fact I think I agree with you on what you said
[coptic]]nou An;wni@ ]jemc ou`n,ai e;nast ete vai pe pekjw je ;ai te `mmauatc `nje ouacpi. Qen `pjin[isbw `nte ouacpi ten[ont qen ouqici ecaji `mmoc qen oujwk ebol@ arimeu`i ejen `n]rem`nAggelia - ten[ont ecaji a[ne ouatercaji ouoh tencohi `mmoc `nje tenercaji `nniswlh `ntencaji `mmoc `m`vry] (na taiacpi)[/coptic]
Now Anthony: I find that thing difficult which is you saying that it is merely a language. In our learning of a language we try hard to speak it perfectly; think of the English - we try to speak without an accent and correct it, meaning the pronunciation of the letters to speak it like its "proprietors"
[coptic]:ai an `nouhwb `nte covia `nte tenek`klycia te `ntecvolj `mmetfairwous `nte ]meterouai `nte niacpi `cnau ejen `vnyb Arian Gergec vuetaf;wq ]metrem`n<ymi nem ]metOueinin `mberi ouoh afhipho ]acpi `mmyi ;yet]meu`i je hanouon `nrwmi cecaji `nqytc sa paiehoou[/coptic]
It was not something wise of our church to hand responsibility of uniting both languages to Mister Erian Gerges who mixed the Coptic with the modern Greek and disregarded the true language which I think that there are some people speaking it till this day
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
Please mention us in your prayers
[coptic]An;wni nem Myna namenra]>
qen pisorp@ Myna ]ka] an ejen ou ]na]ma] an nemak? Qen oume;myi ]meu`i je ]]ma] nemak ejen vyetafjoc[/coptic]
Firstly; Mina I don't understand on what will I not agree with you? In fact I think I agree with you on what you said
great. the only reason i said that is, some people tent to be too zelous with the language, not thinking about other people, who are not copts and don't speak coptic, accepting this concpet of "it's our language".
i even argued with someone that told me i did this huge research about how coptic was our language and how we were all copts, not being called ARABS. and i said, great, we all know that.....but that research would never prove that THIS IS OUR LANGUAGE, WE HAVE TO GET BACK NOW. yes it was, or even is, but never in the way it was. it's it's always best to just say "It's our heritage"
Coptic was the language of my ancestors but its not the language I speak....so what? When I say I am Coptic, I am mostly referring to my faith, not the silly details like the language I pray in or the style of worship- these sort of things don't really matter in the long run. I agree that it is best to keep the proper pronounciation of coptic, but unfortunately, I do not see the point nowadays because of the fact that people won't change. The sooner we make our peace with this, the better...
Tony
Myna@ ]]ma] nemak qen oujwk an[/coptic]
Mina: I agree with you to some extent
[coptic]An;wni@ aimoust evai `noumys `ncop ouoh ]ouws an `nouhemt emasw[/coptic]
Tony: I argued that many times and I don't want to repeat myself much
[coptic]`ksanhwc `nouon `nnihwc `nrem`nArapia ete vai auermyneuinf ehrui eqoun ]metAggelia `knameu`i `n;ok ekhwc as ouon?[/coptic]
If you sing one of the Arabic songs which is translated into Egnlish which will you consider yourself singing?
[coptic]Arimeu`i (`Viwt `V]) - `ksanhwcf qen ]metAggelia `kmou] erof qen oume;myi ouhwc `nArapoc?[/coptic]
Take "Father God" - when you sing it in English do you call it really an Arabic song?
[coptic]Mypwc e;bytk alla qen outajro `mmon e;be oucepi `nte ni`slol[/coptic]
Maybe for you but for sure not for the rest of the people
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
Let me explain: this tune, Nek Nai-- Sourian Monastery is suposed to be said in Baker, but we say it in Midnight Tasbeha instead....
now this tune (listen to thee tune itself, the way they say it,) Midnight praise by St.Anthony Monatery, California , listen to the tune itself, and i have been told that this is the tune that is supposed to be said in the Midnight Praise instead of the other one...... (sorry it is in english)
now the third one of Kiahk, i donèt think i heard it, but i think i might find it on the ivdeo of Kiahk Tasbeha by Anba Youaness
Please correct me if i am wrong.
Coptic Pharaoh
I was looking up Nek Nai on the internet, and i found this version..... its for the great lent, and the words are somewhat diferent http://www.alhan.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=133&Itemid=63
this is not "[coptic]Neknai `o paNou][/coptic]" but "[coptic]Neknai `w pa{oic[/coptic]", the first doxology of lent.
Take "Father God" - when you sing it in English do you call it really an Arabic song?
Neither. I call it a protestaunt song :P
The point I'm trying to make is that when we call ourselves Coptic, the thing we should be referring to is our faith; not our language. Languages die out and new ones are introduced. Faith never dies and this is truly what makes us who we are.
Tony
Oun ouon oumour `n`sma oute pinah] nem ]acpi. Qen `pjin`;rekcaji je nilac mou ouoh nike,wouni `mberi swpi `cse an eccohi te. Nim `f`scaji afsanmou ie efswpi? :ai gar te euer,rac;e `m`vry] eknau[/coptic]
There is a subtle link between the faith and the language. When you say that the languages die and new ones exist is not right. Who says if it dies or exists? It is being used as you can see
[coptic]]metrem`n<ymi acmou an. `N;oc gar aucaji an hiten oumys `nrwmi `nniehoou[/coptic]
the Coptic did not die. It is just not spoken by many people nowadays
[coptic]]]ma] an ejen euemou] eroi je va nirem`n<ymi ouoh ]`scaji an `n]metrem`n<ymi[/coptic]
I don't agree on being called Coptic and I can't speak the Coptic language
[coptic]Tenek`klycia on eumou] eroc `nrem`n<ymi `mmon `nremArapoc ie `nrem`mBritanni`a =s=b=l[/coptic]
Our church also is called Coptic not Arabic or English, etc
[coptic]Kata pennah] ourem`n<ymi pe> `mpairy] swpi tenlac[/coptic]
Like our faith being Coptic, should be our language
[coptic]`Mperka] eroi `nsoft - anok eicaji an je ]kwt erwmi tyrou eucaji tenlac ]nou okoun `mpernouj ebol nenhwc nem nenlitourgia nem nenmetsemsi `nrem`n<ymi[/coptic]
Don't misunderstand me - I am not saying that I advocate all people speaking our language right now but at least don't discard our hymns or our liturgies or our services in Coptic
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
[coptic]`nrem`mBritanni`a =s=b=l[/coptic]
this is random....but i just liked this....:D...;)
it's coming of Britain.....kooooool
[coptic]An;wni pamenrit>
Oun ouon oumour `n`sma oute pinah] nem ]acpi. Qen `pjin`;rekcaji je nilac mou ouoh nike,wouni `mberi swpi `cse an eccohi te. Nim `f`scaji afsanmou ie efswpi? :ai gar te euer,rac;e `m`vry] eknau[/coptic]
There is a subtle link between the faith and the language. When you say that the languages die and new ones exist is not right. Who says if it dies or exists? It is being used as you can see
[coptic]]metrem`n<ymi acmou an. `N;oc gar aucaji an hiten oumys `nrwmi `nniehoou[/coptic]
the Coptic did not die. It is just not spoken by many people nowadays
[coptic]]]ma] an ejen euemou] eroi je va nirem`n<ymi ouoh ]`scaji an `n]metrem`n<ymi[/coptic]
I don't agree on being called Coptic and I can't speak the Coptic language
[coptic]Tenek`klycia on eumou] eroc `nrem`n<ymi `mmon `nremArapoc ie `nrem`mBritanni`a =s=b=l[/coptic]
Our church also is called Coptic not Arabic or English, etc
[coptic]Kata pennah] ourem`n<ymi pe> `mpairy] swpi tenlac[/coptic]
Like our faith being Coptic, should be our language
[coptic]`Mperka] eroi `nsoft - anok eicaji an je ]kwt erwmi tyrou eucaji tenlac ]nou okoun `mpernouj ebol nenhwc nem nenlitourgia nem nenmetsemsi `nrem`n<ymi[/coptic]
Don't misunderstand me - I am not saying that I advocate all people speaking our language right now but at least don't discard our hymns or our liturgies or our services in Coptic
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
Let me ask you a simple question. If there was a Coptic church that did not use Coptic at all in their services, do you think it should not be called a Coptic church?
Tony
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=7189.msg95530#msg95530 date=1223927274]
[coptic]An;wni pamenrit>
Oun ouon oumour `n`sma oute pinah] nem ]acpi. Qen `pjin`;rekcaji je nilac mou ouoh nike,wouni `mberi swpi `cse an eccohi te. Nim `f`scaji afsanmou ie efswpi? :ai gar te euer,rac;e `m`vry] eknau[/coptic]
There is a subtle link between the faith and the language. When you say that the languages die and new ones exist is not right. Who says if it dies or exists? It is being used as you can see
[coptic]]metrem`n<ymi acmou an. `N;oc gar aucaji an hiten oumys `nrwmi `nniehoou[/coptic]
the Coptic did not die. It is just not spoken by many people nowadays
[coptic]]]ma] an ejen euemou] eroi je va nirem`n<ymi ouoh ]`scaji an `n]metrem`n<ymi[/coptic]
I don't agree on being called Coptic and I can't speak the Coptic language
[coptic]Tenek`klycia on eumou] eroc `nrem`n<ymi `mmon `nremArapoc ie `nrem`mBritanni`a =s=b=l[/coptic]
Our church also is called Coptic not Arabic or English, etc
[coptic]Kata pennah] ourem`n<ymi pe> `mpairy] swpi tenlac[/coptic]
Like our faith being Coptic, should be our language
[coptic]`Mperka] eroi `nsoft - anok eicaji an je ]kwt erwmi tyrou eucaji tenlac ]nou okoun `mpernouj ebol nenhwc nem nenlitourgia nem nenmetsemsi `nrem`n<ymi[/coptic]
Don't misunderstand me - I am not saying that I advocate all people speaking our language right now but at least don't discard our hymns or our liturgies or our services in Coptic
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
Let me ask you a simple question. If there was a Coptic church that did not use Coptic at all in their services, do you think it should not be called a Coptic church?
Tony
Yes, we are not Coptic ("[coptic]aiguptioc[/coptic]" meaning: Egyptian) becasue we use the "language" but becasue the word Coptic means EGYPTIAN , and that is who we are.... it is not mearely a language, it is a culture, a from of Christianity, and it is who we are... We are not Arab, therefore, we must be Egyptian, and Coptic.
We do not define a Church on being Coptic or not becasue of their use of the Language, becasue "Coptic" is a religion, and Coptic is a BELIEF, you are Coptic, not becasue u speak the language, but becasue you beleive the in what the Church beleives in (CREED, etc...)
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=7189.msg95540#msg95540 date=1223943773]
[quote author=ophadece link=topic=7189.msg95530#msg95530 date=1223927274]
[coptic]An;wni pamenrit>
Oun ouon oumour `n`sma oute pinah] nem ]acpi. Qen `pjin`;rekcaji je nilac mou ouoh nike,wouni `mberi swpi `cse an eccohi te. Nim `f`scaji afsanmou ie efswpi? :ai gar te euer,rac;e `m`vry] eknau[/coptic]
There is a subtle link between the faith and the language. When you say that the languages die and new ones exist is not right. Who says if it dies or exists? It is being used as you can see
[coptic]]metrem`n<ymi acmou an. `N;oc gar aucaji an hiten oumys `nrwmi `nniehoou[/coptic]
the Coptic did not die. It is just not spoken by many people nowadays
[coptic]]]ma] an ejen euemou] eroi je va nirem`n<ymi ouoh ]`scaji an `n]metrem`n<ymi[/coptic]
I don't agree on being called Coptic and I can't speak the Coptic language
[coptic]Tenek`klycia on eumou] eroc `nrem`n<ymi `mmon `nremArapoc ie `nrem`mBritanni`a =s=b=l[/coptic]
Our church also is called Coptic not Arabic or English, etc
[coptic]Kata pennah] ourem`n<ymi pe> `mpairy] swpi tenlac[/coptic]
Like our faith being Coptic, should be our language
[coptic]`Mperka] eroi `nsoft - anok eicaji an je ]kwt erwmi tyrou eucaji tenlac ]nou okoun `mpernouj ebol nenhwc nem nenlitourgia nem nenmetsemsi `nrem`n<ymi[/coptic]
Don't misunderstand me - I am not saying that I advocate all people speaking our language right now but at least don't discard our hymns or our liturgies or our services in Coptic
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
Let me ask you a simple question. If there was a Coptic church that did not use Coptic at all in their services, do you think it should not be called a Coptic church?
Tony
Yes, we are not Coptic ("[coptic]aiguptioc[/coptic]" meaning: Egyptian) becasue we use the "language" but becasue the word Coptic means EGYPTIAN , and that is who we are.... it is not mearely a language, it is a culture, a from of Christianity, and it is who we are... We are not Arab, therefore, we must be Egyptian, and Coptic.
We do not define a Church on being Coptic or not becasue of their use of the Language, becasue "Coptic" is a religion, and Coptic is a BELIEF, you are Coptic, not becasue u speak the language, but becasue you beleive the in what the Church beleives in (CREED, etc...)
You have answered my question well except for one thing. I was trying to highlight that language is not important in the macro (big) perspective of things. All it comes down to is our faith; nothing more. FYI- The language is only a small part of our culture. There are so many other things that make us special like our hymns and rites. The point I am making is that, just because we do not use the language does not mean we are getting rid of our whole culture. Hopefully we don't get too caught up in the things that do not really matter concerning our salvation.
On another note, I am someone who advocates the use of Coptic in our services so don't think I am against it.
GB
Tony
There are so many other things that make us special like our hymns and rites.
i was waiting for yo say this; our hymns....which are IN coptic...
I know your agree but am just setting some opinion straight......there is a set usage of the language in specific ways. it will never be good to go over that use or limit it more....