[coptic]Namenra] tyrou> ]sep`hmot `ntoten e;be teten`cpody ouoh tener`svir qen paimoust[/coptic] I thank you for your enthusiasm and participating in this topic [coptic]Tenka] an eroi. Aicaji je ]kwt an erwmi tyrou eucaji `ntenlac ]nou okoun `mpen`;rennouj ebol ni,wouni nyetswpi qen ]acpi `nrem`n<ymi[/coptic] You didn't understand me. I said that I am not advocating all people to speak our language straightaway but at least let's not scrap the things that are in Coptic [coptic]Oun ouon oujinsib] oute `vnah] nem ]onomacia - tenhout nem ouor;odoxia `mmon ourem`n<ymi ete ;ai te tenonmacia[/coptic] There is a difference between the faith and the denomination - our faith belongs to Orthodoxy not Coptic which is our denomination [coptic]]joc `nkecop ete vai aijemf ounast `nen,ai `n]nau erwmi qen Amrika vuetcaji an `nrem`nAmrika - `n;of `fnaeratsasni `noumet`m`psa `nwnq `nqytc[/coptic] I say it again that it is a difficult thing to see someone in America who cannot speak American - he will fail to obtain the right to live in it [coptic]]kwt je ni`,rictianoc `nrem`n<ymi [ont eka] tenparadococ ;uetau,ac `mmoc `nje abba Alexandroc> abba A;anacioc> abba Diockoroc> abba Bacilioc> abba `Gregorioc> abba An;wni> abba Paule> abba Paqwm> abba Iwannyc pi;aumatorgoc> abba Ceuyroc nem nytyrou auhymi `mpou`cnof `ntouareh e`vnah] eron nem qen pisorp abba Markoc[/coptic] I advocate that Coptic Christians try to understand our tradition that was left by abba Alexander, abba Athanasios, abba Dioskoros, abba Basil, abba Gregory, abba Anthony, abba Bawla, abba Bakhom, abba John Chrysostom, abba Sawiros and all who paid their blood to preserve the faith to us and at first abba Mark [coptic]Mpenswpi hanrwmi `napa;yc qen `pjin`i etenlac `mmyi[/coptic] Let us not be apathetic when it comes to our true tongue [coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
Very interesting discussion guys. If I may just ask a small (big!) question though; what place do you think Arabic has in our church? Would you consider the Arabic language to be part of our heritage too, or should it only remain in our church for liturgical purposes? Especially with second generation Copts in the lands of immigration who don't speak or understand the language (well I can only speak of the UK, I'm not totally sure on the situation in the US and elsewhere).
In the US there is the same problem, but churches with bigger congregations and more than one priest and alter, they have on liturgy in arabic for the older generations and one in english on another alter for those who want it in english(of course not at the same time). In smaller churches I see that there is generally a mix between all three languages, although in that case, coptic is generally the language that is skipped(unfortunately) and it is just said in english and arabic. Arabic for sure is not a part of our heritage as COPTS, it is just the language spoken in egypt because of the arab conquest.
Coptic hymns do not have to be in coptic to make them "coptic." I know this might be difficult to understand but my definition of coptic is not referring to just the language. I am mainly getting at the theology, faith, and culture. So its possible to say a coptic hymn in english and for it to still have the coptic "identity" if you will.
For the record, I want to make it clear that I do not want to get rid of coptic. I guess im just looking at things that matter the most.
[quote author=LondonCopt link=topic=7189.msg95630#msg95630 date=1224017485] Very interesting discussion guys. If I may just ask a small (big!) question though; what place do you think Arabic has in our church? Would you consider the Arabic language to be part of our heritage too, or should it only remain in our church for liturgical purposes? Especially with second generation Copts in the lands of immigration who don't speak or understand the language (well I can only speak of the UK, I'm not totally sure on the situation in the US and elsewhere).
Interested to hear your opinions! Matthew
arabic became partially part of our church (not really heritage) because it is the language that ppl speak and understand. u can't ignore it. same as english and many others in other churches in the world.
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=7189.msg95635#msg95635 date=1224025657] Coptic hymns do not have to be in coptic to make them "coptic." I know this might be difficult to understand but my definition of coptic is not referring to just the language.
i thought we ALL agreed, before, not only us un-knowledgeable ppl of true music & tunes, but really musicians of this world, that for a tune or hymn or even a song to be in perfect way, it must be sung in its original language........
EVERYONE who wants to have a reason to sing in english rather then coptic uses the understanding of words concept, which is in my full opinion, a lame reason. coptic is a language, it's fully translated rightly and all can understand that.
I WILL KEEP REPEATING the above statement (in bold) forever because it is a fact AND, NO ONE HAVE A PROOF TO DENY IT.
Vassilios can come here and speak about the "dangers of coptic" all he wants, as he did before......
The bottomline is that it doesn't matter if we are looking for the perfect tune or authenticity in the big picture. By the way, we are not even using the coptic that was chanted back in the days of the formation of our hymns so that hurts your arguement. Things evolve, people change, languages die out (not used in the home), and so on.
In some cases i understand where you are coming from. The problem is that sometimes, when people pray in a language that they understand, it becomes more personalized- they immediately feel what they say and you can sense that in how they chant the words. It then gives it a little something that you would not get out of a language you don't understand. So, in most cases, chanting in the language that you understand is the best. Even if you can read the text in front of you, it is still not the same when the words you understand are being chanted.
A good example would be if I were to listen to a liturgy from Fr. Moussa Ibrahim. I love listening to how he chants the commemoration of the saints or the litany of the departed in coptic. However, i also love listening to how Fr. Antonious tanious chant similar parts with the same amount of beauty. The tunes are both beautiful but i get more from the english because i understand and am able to follow, concentrate, and contemplate. When i listen to the coptic, i tend to focus more on the tune- which then makes it more difficult for me to do those three things i mentioned.
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=7189.msg95654#msg95654 date=1224045919] The bottomline is that it doesn't matter if we are looking for the perfect tune or authenticity in the big picture. By the way, we are not even using the coptic that was chanted back in the days of the formation of our hymns so that hurts your arguement. Things evolve, people change, languages die out (not used in the home), and so on.
In some cases i understand where you are coming from. The problem is that sometimes, when people pray in a language that they understand, it becomes more personalized- they immediately feel what they say and you can sense that in how they chant the words. It then gives it a little something that you would not get out of a language you don't understand. So, in most cases, chanting in the language that you understand is the best. Even if you can read the text in front of you, it is still not the same when the words you understand are being chanted.
A good example would be if I were to listen to a liturgy from Fr. Moussa Ibrahim. I love listening to how he chants the commemoration of the saints or the litany of the departed in coptic. However, i also love listening to how Fr. Antonious tanious chant similar parts with the same amount of beauty. The tunes are both beautiful but i get more from the english because i understand and am able to follow, concentrate, and contemplate. When i listen to the coptic, i tend to focus more on the tune- which then makes it more difficult for me to do those three things i mentioned.
Why would others spend that much time, even their whole lives (Ragheb Moftah) to revive what was lost and keep it, and other change it or ignore it. Tony, you're part of HCOC...stand for your statement.....
If things that are great, not only good, are dieing, then WHY NOT HOLD ON WHAT WE HAVE?! why would we want to continue the destruction?!
Fr. Antonius and Tanious is a great priest.......i know him personally....but he puts his own tunes on english, and when praying coptic, he says it in the coptic tune......doesn't rakeeb the tunes on english ti replace COPTIC!!!
"Why would others spend that much time, even their whole lives (Ragheb Moftah) to revive what was lost and keep it, and other change it or ignore it. Tony, you're part of HCOC...stand for your statement....."
It was their decision to keep it in coptic and I am glad they did, dont get me wrong. In fact, it was the best decision for the sake preserving the language, but that doesnt mean it has to be prayed in this language all the time. There is nothing in HCOC that says do not chant hymns in english.
"If things that are great, not only good, are dieing, then WHY NOT HOLD ON WHAT WE HAVE?! why would we want to continue the destruction?!"
When i said the language has died out, i meant that no one speaks it anymore in their homes (except for fr. shenouda). Again, im not saying we should forget completely about coptic, but im saying that atleast half (if not most) should be prayed in the language that you understand. It is more beneficial.
As for fr. Antonious, i know some parts are not exactly like the coptic but your missing the point. I am saying that if a priest can pray the same way he does in the coptic tune but in your mother language, it will be spiritually more beneficial to hear.
[coptic]E;be ouon niben `mnai>[/coptic] To every one here, [coptic]Ari`hmot ari`pwbs `mpaimoust ouoh erouw nyi qen paisini - as tetenmeu`i ejen pimys `mmona,oc `naatka] nyetauareh `mpinah] hiten nihwc `nrem`n<ymi `mmauatou euemi an eneh?[/coptic] Please forget this topic and answer me in this question - what do you think about the multitude of illiterate monks who preserved the faith through the Coptic hymns alone not understanding it at all? [coptic]Ou;ebio? ouontau an `nhannouc (`mmon `mpenry])? aukwrsou a[ne covia? apa;yc qen jinvwnh eArapoc? ie ou?[/coptic] Humility? didn't have brains (not like us)? forced without wisdom? apathy in converting to Arabic? or what? [coptic]:wni@ aier`pwbs je `n;ok pe va[/coptic] (HCOC) [coptic]- `kcaji je ]metrem`n<ymi acmou ouoh `kcaji on je piouyb Senou] caji `mmoc, nem piouyb Pijol qen Almania - ]ka] an[/coptic] Tony: I forgot that you belong to HCOC - you are saying that Coptic died and you are also saying that Fr. Shenouda speaks it, and Fr. Bigol in Germany - I don't understand [coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
Ophadece, You have to remember some of the problems we face now with pronunciation and with certain text hymns(Istermagi is a perfect example) that these illeterate monks because they didn't know what they were saying and necessarily how they were saying it, caused texts that were taken down from what they said were of no good. Don't get me wrong, I love coptic and I agree with you guys, but like Tony said, there needs to be a balance. We can't be completely pushing coptic on others who don't understand it, when it becomes something that can be taught WITH understanding and not just mearly reading it, then i would agree with you. But since that has yet to happen we can't become like muslims who made their converts read arabic because it was "Allahs" langauge. As long as the faith remains the same nothing else matters(within reason).
Say for example now even, while you were living in egypt, would you like all of a sudden for the liturgy to be prayed in spanish(maybe even english) when most couldn't understand it? Same thing with churches in the immigration lands, most of the new generations have NO ties with arabic and do not like the liturgy to be prayed in arabic at all. Same applies to coptic, it is our heritage and we should preserve it as best as we can, but we should not lose sight of whats really important in the liturgy. I should probably take my own advice since i'm now a hyporcrite but those are my two cents.
Hello I just started reading this topic today about NekNai, but apparently it turned into a wonderful conversation, which i enjoy reading about.
and i know this is off topic, but i would love to own or hear at least one, if not many: does anyone have a recorded liturgy for Father Shenouda Maher? (i listened to the old bohairic language and it is beautiful, i must say). is he the one from NJ?
[quote author=LondonCopt link=topic=7189.msg95630#msg95630 date=1224017485] Very interesting discussion guys. If I may just ask a small (big!) question though; what place do you think Arabic has in our church? Would you consider the Arabic language to be part of our heritage too, or should it only remain in our church for liturgical purposes? Especially with second generation Copts in the lands of immigration who don't speak or understand the language (well I can only speak of the UK, I'm not totally sure on the situation in the US and elsewhere).
Interested to hear your opinions! Matthew
I really shouldnt be saying anything because I wasn't following but I'm just repling to this message, arabic in our church is I guess because the main population of copts are in Egypt, were the taraneem were made, later translated into English, a lot of people think it will fade but I don't think so, people will keep going out of Egypt to all the parts of the world keeping the Arabic taraneem and the Arabic Liturgy alive, we just got really used to it.
I have a friend who is Chaldean Catholic (Iraq) who still speaks the original language of his people.(Kildani). I found out that all of people who are from the Chaldean Catholic Church have kept their language even though they were also oppressed from Islam. I was really impressed when i found this out and i thought it was brilliant, and gave me enormous amount of zeal to learn the Coptic language which is our original language. I think we all need to learn Coptic as a language in order to try and revive it like the Chaldeans. that would be amazing and it will end all of the silly disputes of trying to eliminate the Coptic from our liturgys. PPFM
[quote author=Pi Onkh link=topic=7189.msg117996#msg117996 date=1281613807] I have a friend who is Chaldean Catholic (Iraq) who still speaks the original language of his people.(Kildani). I found out that all of people who are from the Chaldean Catholic Church have kept their language even though they were also oppressed from Islam. I was really impressed when i found this out and i thought it was brilliant, and gave me enormous amount of zeal to learn the Coptic language which is our original language. I think we all need to learn Coptic as a language in order to try and revive it like the Chaldeans. that would be amazing and it will end all of the silly disputes of trying to eliminate the Coptic from our liturgys. PPFM
[coptic]miok piwnq `n;ok on aripenmev`i qen nek`slyl oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Comments
]sep`hmot `ntoten e;be teten`cpody ouoh tener`svir qen paimoust[/coptic]
I thank you for your enthusiasm and participating in this topic
[coptic]Tenka] an eroi. Aicaji je ]kwt an erwmi tyrou eucaji `ntenlac ]nou okoun `mpen`;rennouj ebol ni,wouni nyetswpi qen ]acpi `nrem`n<ymi[/coptic]
You didn't understand me. I said that I am not advocating all people to speak our language straightaway but at least let's not scrap the things that are in Coptic
[coptic]Oun ouon oujinsib] oute `vnah] nem ]onomacia - tenhout nem ouor;odoxia `mmon ourem`n<ymi ete ;ai te tenonmacia[/coptic]
There is a difference between the faith and the denomination - our faith belongs to Orthodoxy not Coptic which is our denomination
[coptic]]joc `nkecop ete vai aijemf ounast `nen,ai `n]nau erwmi qen Amrika vuetcaji an `nrem`nAmrika - `n;of `fnaeratsasni `noumet`m`psa `nwnq `nqytc[/coptic]
I say it again that it is a difficult thing to see someone in America who cannot speak American - he will fail to obtain the right to live in it
[coptic]]kwt je ni`,rictianoc `nrem`n<ymi [ont eka] tenparadococ ;uetau,ac `mmoc `nje abba Alexandroc> abba A;anacioc> abba Diockoroc> abba Bacilioc> abba `Gregorioc> abba An;wni> abba Paule> abba Paqwm> abba Iwannyc pi;aumatorgoc> abba Ceuyroc nem nytyrou auhymi `mpou`cnof `ntouareh e`vnah] eron nem qen pisorp abba Markoc[/coptic]
I advocate that Coptic Christians try to understand our tradition that was left by abba Alexander, abba Athanasios, abba Dioskoros, abba Basil, abba Gregory, abba Anthony, abba Bawla, abba Bakhom, abba John Chrysostom, abba Sawiros and all who paid their blood to preserve the faith to us and at first abba Mark
[coptic]Mpenswpi hanrwmi `napa;yc qen `pjin`i etenlac `mmyi[/coptic]
Let us not be apathetic when it comes to our true tongue
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
Interested to hear your opinions!
Matthew
Coptic hymns do not have to be in coptic to make them "coptic." I know this might be difficult to understand but my definition of coptic is not referring to just the language. I am mainly getting at the theology, faith, and culture. So its possible to say a coptic hymn in english and for it to still have the coptic "identity" if you will.
For the record, I want to make it clear that I do not want to get rid of coptic. I guess im just looking at things that matter the most.
GB
Tony
Very interesting discussion guys. If I may just ask a small (big!) question though; what place do you think Arabic has in our church? Would you consider the Arabic language to be part of our heritage too, or should it only remain in our church for liturgical purposes? Especially with second generation Copts in the lands of immigration who don't speak or understand the language (well I can only speak of the UK, I'm not totally sure on the situation in the US and elsewhere).
Interested to hear your opinions!
Matthew
arabic became partially part of our church (not really heritage) because it is the language that ppl speak and understand. u can't ignore it. same as english and many others in other churches in the world.
[quote author=Amoussa01 link=topic=7189.msg95635#msg95635 date=1224025657]
Coptic hymns do not have to be in coptic to make them "coptic." I know this might be difficult to understand but my definition of coptic is not referring to just the language.
i thought we ALL agreed, before, not only us un-knowledgeable ppl of true music & tunes, but really musicians of this world, that for a tune or hymn or even a song to be in perfect way, it must be sung in its original language........
EVERYONE who wants to have a reason to sing in english rather then coptic uses the understanding of words concept, which is in my full opinion, a lame reason. coptic is a language, it's fully translated rightly and all can understand that.
I WILL KEEP REPEATING the above statement (in bold) forever because it is a fact AND, NO ONE HAVE A PROOF TO DENY IT.
Vassilios can come here and speak about the "dangers of coptic" all he wants, as he did before......
In some cases i understand where you are coming from. The problem is that sometimes, when people pray in a language that they understand, it becomes more personalized- they immediately feel what they say and you can sense that in how they chant the words. It then gives it a little something that you would not get out of a language you don't understand. So, in most cases, chanting in the language that you understand is the best. Even if you can read the text in front of you, it is still not the same when the words you understand are being chanted.
A good example would be if I were to listen to a liturgy from Fr. Moussa Ibrahim. I love listening to how he chants the commemoration of the saints or the litany of the departed in coptic. However, i also love listening to how Fr. Antonious tanious chant similar parts with the same amount of beauty. The tunes are both beautiful but i get more from the english because i understand and am able to follow, concentrate, and contemplate. When i listen to the coptic, i tend to focus more on the tune- which then makes it more difficult for me to do those three things i mentioned.
GB
Tony
The bottomline is that it doesn't matter if we are looking for the perfect tune or authenticity in the big picture. By the way, we are not even using the coptic that was chanted back in the days of the formation of our hymns so that hurts your arguement. Things evolve, people change, languages die out (not used in the home), and so on.
In some cases i understand where you are coming from. The problem is that sometimes, when people pray in a language that they understand, it becomes more personalized- they immediately feel what they say and you can sense that in how they chant the words. It then gives it a little something that you would not get out of a language you don't understand. So, in most cases, chanting in the language that you understand is the best. Even if you can read the text in front of you, it is still not the same when the words you understand are being chanted.
A good example would be if I were to listen to a liturgy from Fr. Moussa Ibrahim. I love listening to how he chants the commemoration of the saints or the litany of the departed in coptic. However, i also love listening to how Fr. Antonious tanious chant similar parts with the same amount of beauty. The tunes are both beautiful but i get more from the english because i understand and am able to follow, concentrate, and contemplate. When i listen to the coptic, i tend to focus more on the tune- which then makes it more difficult for me to do those three things i mentioned.
Why would others spend that much time, even their whole lives (Ragheb Moftah) to revive what was lost and keep it, and other change it or ignore it.
Tony, you're part of HCOC...stand for your statement.....
If things that are great, not only good, are dieing, then WHY NOT HOLD ON WHAT WE HAVE?! why would we want to continue the destruction?!
Fr. Antonius and Tanious is a great priest.......i know him personally....but he puts his own tunes on english, and when praying coptic, he says it in the coptic tune......doesn't rakeeb the tunes on english ti replace COPTIC!!!
Tony, you're part of HCOC...stand for your statement....."
It was their decision to keep it in coptic and I am glad they did, dont get me wrong. In fact, it was the best decision for the sake preserving the language, but that doesnt mean it has to be prayed in this language all the time. There is nothing in HCOC that says do not chant hymns in english.
"If things that are great, not only good, are dieing, then WHY NOT HOLD ON WHAT WE HAVE?! why would we want to continue the destruction?!"
When i said the language has died out, i meant that no one speaks it anymore in their homes (except for fr. shenouda). Again, im not saying we should forget completely about coptic, but im saying that atleast half (if not most) should be prayed in the language that you understand. It is more beneficial.
As for fr. Antonious, i know some parts are not exactly like the coptic but your missing the point. I am saying that if a priest can pray the same way he does in the coptic tune but in your mother language, it will be spiritually more beneficial to hear.
Tony
To every one here,
[coptic]Ari`hmot ari`pwbs `mpaimoust ouoh erouw nyi qen paisini - as tetenmeu`i ejen pimys `mmona,oc `naatka] nyetauareh `mpinah] hiten nihwc `nrem`n<ymi `mmauatou euemi an eneh?[/coptic]
Please forget this topic and answer me in this question - what do you think about the multitude of illiterate monks who preserved the faith through the Coptic hymns alone not understanding it at all?
[coptic]Ou;ebio? ouontau an `nhannouc (`mmon `mpenry])? aukwrsou a[ne covia? apa;yc qen jinvwnh eArapoc? ie ou?[/coptic]
Humility? didn't have brains (not like us)? forced without wisdom? apathy in converting to Arabic? or what?
[coptic]:wni@ aier`pwbs je `n;ok pe va[/coptic] (HCOC) [coptic]- `kcaji je ]metrem`n<ymi acmou ouoh `kcaji on je piouyb Senou] caji `mmoc, nem piouyb Pijol qen Almania - ]ka] an[/coptic]
Tony: I forgot that you belong to HCOC - you are saying that Coptic died and you are also saying that Fr. Shenouda speaks it, and Fr. Bigol in Germany - I don't understand
[coptic]oujai qen `P=[=c[/coptic]
You have to remember some of the problems we face now with pronunciation and with certain text hymns(Istermagi is a perfect example) that these illeterate monks because they didn't know what they were saying and necessarily how they were saying it, caused texts that were taken down from what they said were of no good. Don't get me wrong, I love coptic and I agree with you guys, but like Tony said, there needs to be a balance. We can't be completely pushing coptic on others who don't understand it, when it becomes something that can be taught WITH understanding and not just mearly reading it, then i would agree with you. But since that has yet to happen we can't become like muslims who made their converts read arabic because it was "Allahs" langauge. As long as the faith remains the same nothing else matters(within reason).
Say for example now even, while you were living in egypt, would you like all of a sudden for the liturgy to be prayed in spanish(maybe even english) when most couldn't understand it? Same thing with churches in the immigration lands, most of the new generations have NO ties with arabic and do not like the liturgy to be prayed in arabic at all. Same applies to coptic, it is our heritage and we should preserve it as best as we can, but we should not lose sight of whats really important in the liturgy. I should probably take my own advice since i'm now a hyporcrite but those are my two cents.
God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness
I just started reading this topic today about NekNai, but apparently it turned into a wonderful conversation, which i enjoy reading about.
and i know this is off topic, but i would love to own or hear at least one, if not many:
does anyone have a recorded liturgy for Father Shenouda Maher? (i listened to the old bohairic language and it is beautiful, i must say).
is he the one from NJ?
Thanks
this is concernign NekNai
i listened to the versions supplied by one of the first replies to this post, it was on coptichymns.net
but i found that it differs in tune in comparison to HCOC, Ibrahim Ayad, and St. Antony's monestary >> in the midnight praise not the morning
can anyone confirm this? or maybe i just have bad ears ;)
listen to them!!
Very interesting discussion guys. If I may just ask a small (big!) question though; what place do you think Arabic has in our church? Would you consider the Arabic language to be part of our heritage too, or should it only remain in our church for liturgical purposes? Especially with second generation Copts in the lands of immigration who don't speak or understand the language (well I can only speak of the UK, I'm not totally sure on the situation in the US and elsewhere).
Interested to hear your opinions!
Matthew
I really shouldnt be saying anything because I wasn't following but I'm just repling to this message, arabic in our church is I guess because the main population of copts are in Egypt, were the taraneem were made, later translated into English, a lot of people think it will fade but I don't think so, people will keep going out of Egypt to all the parts of the world keeping the Arabic taraneem and the Arabic Liturgy alive, we just got really used to it.
PPFM
I have a friend who is Chaldean Catholic (Iraq) who still speaks the original language of his people.(Kildani). I found out that all of people who are from the Chaldean Catholic Church have kept their language even though they were also oppressed from Islam. I was really impressed when i found this out and i thought it was brilliant, and gave me enormous amount of zeal to learn the Coptic language which is our original language. I think we all need to learn Coptic as a language in order to try and revive it like the Chaldeans. that would be amazing and it will end all of the silly disputes of trying to eliminate the Coptic from our liturgys.
PPFM
[coptic]miok piwnq
`n;ok on aripenmev`i qen nek`slyl
oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]