Howdy, Stranger!
It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!
Categories
- All Categories 13.7K
- General Category 10.8K
- General Announcements 184
- Faith Issues 3.4K
- Coptic Orthodox Church 2.5K
- Personal Issues 1.4K
- Prayer Requests 423
- Random Issues 1.8K
- Introductions 294
- Non-Orthodox Inquiries 232
- Youth Corner 606
- Hymns 2.5K
- Hymns Discussion 2.5K
- Technicial Difficulties 367
- Technical Topics 367
Communion in the Hand vs. Communion in the Mouth
Growing up in a Coptic Orthodox enviroment, and going to a COC, I was taught that the Holy Body and Blood of the Lord, should be delivered by the priest directly into the mouth of the receiver.
I fully agree with this, but recently I was on a British Orthodox (a member of our Holy Church, were their Metropolitan is a full member of the Holy Synod) website were I read some text, that stated that the priests deliver the Holy Body to the Reciever in their hands (as the Roman Catholic Church) based on the words of Abba Cyril of Jeruslem, who stated that the Holy Body should be recieved with the hands forming a "throne."
Is it just me or does this bother anyone else (specaily the fact that the BOC is under our Church's Supervision), I mean if I were to go pray in a British Orthodox Church, I dont think I'd let the Priest place it in my hand?
Any opinons, remarks, or explanations?
God Bless
I fully agree with this, but recently I was on a British Orthodox (a member of our Holy Church, were their Metropolitan is a full member of the Holy Synod) website were I read some text, that stated that the priests deliver the Holy Body to the Reciever in their hands (as the Roman Catholic Church) based on the words of Abba Cyril of Jeruslem, who stated that the Holy Body should be recieved with the hands forming a "throne."
Is it just me or does this bother anyone else (specaily the fact that the BOC is under our Church's Supervision), I mean if I were to go pray in a British Orthodox Church, I dont think I'd let the Priest place it in my hand?
Any opinons, remarks, or explanations?
God Bless
Comments
In The Catechetical Lectures of St. Cyril of Jerusalem lecture 23, the Holy and God-inspired Saint tells us: We use the ancient Liturgy of St. James, which tradition has it goes back to that used by the brother (in the flesh) of Our Lord, and which was written down by St. Cyril. All we are doing in the BOC is to follow the rule laid down by St. Cyril of Jerusalem. I am unsure why our obedience to this ancient rule should bother anyone; would it not be more troubling if we did not keep to words written by the Saint about 348 A.D.?
Naturally, when the Liturgy of St. Basil is used, we communicate in the more usual way.
It ought to be noted in passing that HH Pope Shenouda III himself has found nothing to 'bother' him in our use of this most ancient Liturgy, and has, indeed, given us express permission to use it.
I hope that helps explain things.
In Christ,
John
When my parish uses the Liturgy of St. James the Body is placed into the mouth of the communicant by the priest.
Does the Syriac Church use the same practice as the BOC with the Body being placed in the hand?
You raise an interesting point. As you can see from my quotation, St. Cyril was aware of the problem, but still wrote as he did. At what point did others decide to disregard his express words?
Can I stress that I am not arguing about which method is 'better' - just saying that in doing what we do we are obeying St. Cyril's own words - which, of course, avoids any argument about what is 'better'.
In Christ,
John
You raise an interesting point. As you can see from my quotation, St. Cyril was aware of the problem, but still wrote as he did. At what point did others decide to disregard his express words?
I suppose this practice faded away for the same reason we now receive Communion using a spoon rather than drinking from the chalice - i.e. it was inpractical, and in some cases irresponsible, in places with larger congregations.
I am not saying one practice is superior to another either - I don't consider myself greater than St. Cyril - but when I receive the antidoron (qurban) in my hand after the Liturgy, I try my best not to drop any crumbs, but I find it near enough impossible. I would have thought the same was true when receiving the Body, which would worry me were I to commune in this manner.
Anyone here have any idea what the practice is in the Syriac Church when using the Liturgy of St. James?
The reason it "bothers" me (as stated before) is that I grew up going to a COC were touching of the Holy Body or Blood by a non-ordained priest/deacon is completely unacceptable, to the point that if a peice of blood were to spill on a persons hand the priest would have to come out and wash the hand and pray over it.
Thus, the issue that probably bothers me the most would be the fact that it is The Real Body and Blood of Christ, and as non-ordained priests/deacons i do believe we shouldn't be allowed to touch it.
I've always thought that the reason the Lord's Disciples such as St. James his cousin, or any other disciple/apostle touched the Body and Blood with their hands was because they were the "original clergy"
In the COC when we approach to take the Body, we are supposed ot have a peice of cloth "lafafa" in our cupped hands (sorta like the throne) to cover our mouths after recieving It, but at no point in time are we allowed to touch It.
Thank you for your feedback and God Bless
As I wrote before, I was making no comment on which was the 'best' method - simply saying that we stuck to what St. Cyril wrote, not taking any view at all about it - other than that that is what he said and that is what we do; no doubt, as with so much else in the course of history, others have decided they know better; that seemed to us dangerous, and to some it seems to open the road to other innovations. Myself, I take a more relaxed view in that the Church allows both methods for the Liturgy of St. James - and who am I to question what the Church allows?
We, too, use the lafafa to cover our mouths; and, of course, receive the blessed Blood of Our Lord via the spoon.
I quite understand that those unused to our method may find it unusual, but since it has been going since about 340 A.D. and was the practice of the Church in Jerusalem in St. Cyril's time, it seems to have quite a bit going for it. I'm not sure if we're radical innovators (in 4th century terms) or dyed-in-the-wool old traditionalists sticking to St. Cyril's writings. (Guess we could be both?!)
It would be interesting to know what the practice in the Syriac Church is.
In Christ,
John
PK
Personally speaking though, I prefer it the way it is currently, beacuse honeslty, we've been doing it like this for hundreds of years, why would we change it?
please pray for me
There is room for such a diversity in the Church.
In Christ,
John
forgive me , I probably misunderstood, but, since when was there a liturgy of st james????
Since the Apostle by the same name wrote it almost 2000 years ago for use in the Church in Jerusalem. It is the oldest Liturgy in the Church.
It is not used by the Coptic Church, but is the standard Liturgy of the Syriac Church (the BOC originated from the Syriac Church, which is why they use St. James). The Eastern Orthodox churches also use the Liturgy of St. James, but only twice every year.
so communion in the hand or mouth depends on the liturgy your praying?
Many thanks for your response.
There are usually taken to be five principal families of early liturgies:
1. That of St. James, or Jerusalem
2. That of St. Mark, or Alexandria,
3. That of St. Thaddeus, or the East,
4. That of St. Peter, or Rome,
5. That of St. John, or Ephesus.
That of Jerusalem has three branches: the Clementine, the Caesarean and the Hierosolymitan. The St. Basil and the St. John Chrysostom Liturgies have developed from the second of these branches; the St. James comes from the third. There are three main variants of the St. James (bet you are sorry for asking now!):
1. The Sicilian St. James, which ceased being used quite early on, but parts of which came into the Roman use.
2. The St. Cyril usage, which became part of the Alexandrian tradition.
3. The Syriac St. James, which is the direct ancestor of the ones in use today.
The one the BOC uses was adapted from a seventeenth century translation used by the Scottish Episcopalians, and is based, in part, on the St. Cyril usage. It is an extremely ancient, and extremely beautiful Liturgy, which I have found marvellously uplifting. The taking of the bread in the hand is prescribed, as I cited previously, in St. Cyril of Jerusalem's Catechetical lectures.
That may be more information than anyone wants - but there we go!
The short answer to Mina's question would appear to be 'yes'. Hope that helps.
In Christ,
Anglian
The short answer to Mina's question would appear to be 'yes'. Hope that helps.
i little more details please. becaue i know our liturgy ends with the same prayers which do not defir from time to time (except seasonal liturgies)
The instruction in the St. James about how to receive the 'lamb' comes in the rubrics, which reads thus: So it is not in the main text of the Liturgy, but rather in the rubrics.
Is that a help at all?
In Christ,
Anglian
Dear Mina,
The instruction in the St. James about how to receive the 'lamb' comes in the rubrics, which reads thus: So it is not in the main text of the Liturgy, but rather in the rubrics.
Is that a help at all?
yes it does. thanks for clearfication.
I'm glad.
Of course I would add that there is here no question of one way being 'right' and the other not, or one way being 'better'; it is simply a case of different Liturgies having a different practice. Whenever I am at a Coptic Church I take the body in the usual way, which I actually find more comfortable, but I have become used to the St. James method.
In Christ,
Anglian