How old may have Adam been before his first sin?

edited December 2006 in Faith Issues
1000 years maybe?

did God expect Adam to be without sin for 1000 years?

Also if Jesus died for us why do those who believe in Him die still?
if they didn't die then it would be a miracle and proof that christianity is the true religion.. but then where would faith be?
why did God make it that faith is necessary for salvation?

And how come jesus only had to suffer for a few hours and not for all eternity to pay the debt that we owed the Divine Justice (if that is true or makes sense)?


Why can't God dwell with sinners in heaven like He dwelt with them on earth?


Comments

  • [quote author=mikeforjesus link=board=1;threadid=4811;start=0#msg65477 date=1167228740]
    1000 years maybe?

    did God expect Adam to be without sin for 1000 years?



    of course God knows everything.


    Also if Jesus died for us why do those who believe in Him die still?
    if they didn't die then it would be a miracle and proof that christianity is the true religion.. but then where would faith be?

    first you have to remeber that if you're talking the physcal death than everyone will die and wil change into dust, our original form. Christ died to save us from the death of the original sin. and here this kind of death is talking soul wise not physcal.

    yes you're right but that's not the idea of going to heaven. God allready gave somthing to the people to believe in. He even sent His Son to do so. just remeber the Lazures parable. when the rich man was buring in hades, he saw luzures in the bosom of Abraham and he asked them to send some one from the dead for his brothers on earth to epent and to go to the rit path. but Abraham said they have the prophets and the law. if they wont believe by that, they wont by anything else.
    and to ur quesion here:


    why did God make it that faith is necessary for salvation?

    because faith is neccerly for everything. even int he old testment if the jews didn't have faith in Moses, why did they trust him. Faith somthing that is from the heart of the human. God doesn't binift from faith but we do. GOd just wants to know that if you are from the ones He wont bunish on the last day.


    And how come jesus only had to suffer for a few hours and not for all eternity to pay the debt that we owed the Divine Justice (if that is true or makes sense)?

    well the "requirments" for the Savior are: (as a dear sunday school teacher of mine said)
    - Sinless
    - Can come back from the dead
    - Born of a virgin
    - suffer in the same way the sin was committed (the tree)

    to make it easy, the story was this, Christ cam on earth Sinless, full divine full human fromt he virgin. than He was crucfied using his humanty and thats why he suffered. but than when He died, He went to Hades and in His Divine form, he broke the gates of Hades restord Adam to his orignal state and abolished death of the oroginal sin by His appreance in Hades. so it didn't matter how long Christ stays on the cross as long as He does die as a human and change into His divine nture to break Hades.

    i really don't know if this is clear enough to understand!!!
  • Our punishment was to go to hell forever so how come Christ only suffered a number of hours?

    Because He is God can you say can He suffer for a number of hours as if it is all eternity...?
    But that might not make much sense to me..
  • [quote author=mikeforjesus link=board=1;threadid=4811;start=0#msg65491 date=1167270691]
    Our punishment was to go to hell forever so how come Christ only suffered a number of hours?

    Because He is God can you say can He suffer for a number of hours as if it is all eternity...?
    But that might not make much sense to me..


    wrong statment. it said in the bible:

    Genesis 3:22,23,24
    22 And the Lord God said, "The man ... He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."
    After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.


    so God never said that man will be punished forever as you say. atleast until the Messiah, teh Christ, Jesus Christ and abolishes death by His death. liek i said before, it doesn't matter how long does Christ suffer for as long as He dies as a human and crushes eath by His death.

    mikeforjesus,
    since you don't understand it very well, just know tat Christ has saved You by his crucifix. again the key word herer is not for how long He was crucified for, but for who.
  • [quote author=mikeforjesus link=board=1;threadid=4811;start=0#msg65491 date=1167270691]
    Our punishment was to go to hell forever so how come Christ only suffered a number of hours?

    Because He is God can you say can He suffer for a number of hours as if it is all eternity...?
    But that might not make much sense to me..

    to add to minagir's post adam NEVER WENT TO HELL but was punished by being kicked out of the paradise and going to HADES NOT HELL. Jesus suffering was to clear the sin of adam and a GOD's blood is not like humans it is a huge deal for him to be crucified for no reason of his own. Also Christ suffered to go to hades free a the his faithful servants (Adam, abraham, isaac etc.)
    and take them to the paradise
  • but if Jesus did not come as christians understand it I would go to hell as a punishment for my sins.
  • why would you go to hell?
  • [quote author=mikeforjesus link=board=1;threadid=4811;start=0#msg65558 date=1167360585]
    but if Jesus did not come as christians understand it I would go to hell as a punishment for my sins.


    the only reason you would go to hades today is if you die and you don't repentet or do all these other commendments that we recieved. but you wont go for the sin of Adam. mike, i think what you don't understand is that the only reason that people went straight to hedes including adam and his sons (until the christ) only because Pradise was closed. now the only reason you can go to hell is for your own unforginev sins. mike, please do not mix the sins we do today with the consiquence of the original sin.
  • I totally agree with minagir
  • thats why I said if Jesus did not come.. but since He did come christians believe they will not go to hades because of the original sin..

  • Yes as mina said before we as babtised christians will not go to hades for Adams sin but for not repenting from our own sins before we die
  • Why did Jesus have to die physically and not just suffer eternal death (or maybe spiritual death is better) if that makes sense..?

    Since Elijah rose at least 1 person from the dead I think and Christ Himself rose people from the dead before His own death
    then is it true that Christ did not have to die and then rise again to give others at least physical life after death?

    (I MIGHT BE WRONG.. I MIGHT CONFUSE SOMEONE)

    maybe they would be spiritually dead though..

    Was Jesus separated from God?
    didn't He have to die spiritually for us? didn't He have to be seperated from God?




    This is offtopic maybe but if adam and eve never sinned would there never of been sex or more humans? why in heaven will there never be food (if there won't be) since God created paradise originally with food?

    Maybe God did not intend paradise to be forever.. and if Adam and Eve never sinned for some period maybe God was going to take them to heaven?

    MAYBE I SAID SOMETHING HERETICAL


  • [quote author=mikeforjesus link=board=1;threadid=4811;start=0#msg65625 date=1167481205]
    Why did Jesus have to die physically and not just suffer eternal death (or maybe spiritual death is better) if that makes sense..?

    did Adam fall in sin with his spirit or his body. he eat the fr uit of the tree. another way to think of it is how did Adam than went to hedes, through the normal death of the body. than Christ had to do the same thing so he can acually save him.

    Since Elijah rose at least 1 person from the dead I think and Christ Himself rose people from the dead before His own death
    then is it true that Christ did not have to die and then rise again to give others at least physical life after death?

    (I MIGHT BE WRONG.. I MIGHT CONFUSE SOMEONE)

    ur rit the quesion is confusing. i but i think i'll say this, with what i said above, why would you want physical life after death. after death we'll turn into spirits and than on judgment day well have incrrupt and full of light bodies that are not like what we have now, but very very diffrent that we can enter the Heaven with.

    maybe they would be spiritually dead though..

    spiritually dead means you're away from God even tho ur alive in flesh. God is life and away from him is death.

    Was Jesus seperated from God?
    didn't He have to die spiritually for us? didn't He have to be seperated from God?

    Jesus was never saparated from God. He's 1 of the full perfect Trinity and to leave him out is a heresy.

    This is offtopic maybe but if adam and eve never sinned would there never of been sex or more humans? why in heaven will there never be food (if there won't be) since God created paradise originally with food?

    Maybe God did not intend paradise to be forever.. and if Adam and Eve never sinned for some period maybe God was going to take them to heaven?

    There would of been all of that because God created Adam and brought Eve that way, having the ability to bring forth children. so they were the same all the time even when they were on earth not paradis. and we would of been there now and there wouldn't be any death.
    paradise is was created and still the same and it says in Revelation that the chosen ones will come to heaven and be allowed to eat from the tree of life.

    well you really not God to say may be and might. God knows everything and He still does.
  • I may have known this before.. but why did Jesus say "My God My God why have You forsaken Me?"
    I know because of the prophecy in the psalm.. but was He really forsaken?
  • [quote author=mikeforjesus link=board=1;threadid=4811;start=0#msg65715 date=1167657411]
    I may have known this before.. but why did Jesus say "My God My God why have You forsaken Me?"
    I know because of the prophecy in the psalm.. but was He really forsaken?


    because like i said before (in 1 of your topics mike), Jesus had to die as a human so at that time, God kind of had to stay away becasue the salvation plan had to go in the rit way. ppl say why didn't God just forgive us..??....becasue He is a just God.
  • 1000 years maybe?
    did God expect Adam to be without sin for 1000 years?

    Adam lived 930 years… On earth… yet you don’t know how many in the garden… so he could have even live one million years in the garden… that’s why no body knows how old the earth is… now lets talk about God expecting Adam not to sin… God created man in his Image… which is sinless… did God know he was gonna sin… ya for sure God knows all…. But God always works for the best…

    Also if Jesus died for us why do those who believe in Him die still?

    Those who believe in Him never die… they Live with Him for all eternity in Heaven… but those who don’t will not live with him… they’ll live with ostaz satan for all eternity!


    if they didn't die then it would be a miracle and proof that christianity is the true religion.. but then where would faith be?

    You just answered your own question… also this body sinned so you have to get a new body that is glorified… and blessed that wont stop you and get tired… so if God left us in out bodies He would not be just or fair… because the new body never tires or fails… it does not need rest… so you can stay all night praying… and it would be the regular…

    why did God make it that faith is necessary for salvation?

    If you don’t believe in God… why do you deserve to be with Him? There is no reason… is there? Common sense habibi

    And how come jesus only had to suffer for a few hours and not for all eternity to pay the debt that we owed the Divine Justice (if that is true or makes sense)?

    GOD IS ETERNAL… why is it that a sheep when sacrificed didn’t have to go through torture in the old testament? Its just because the main goal was just to spread the blood… and all jesus had to do was to spread blood… which He did… and his Blood is Eternal… a drop of his blood is enough to forgive Generations upon generations unto the end of ages!

    Why can't God dwell with sinners in heaven like He dwelt with them on earth?

    He dwelt with them on earth just to show them that they are sinners… so that they would repent and come back to him… and be in heaven with Him… that’s the only reason he dwelt with them!

  • This is offtopic maybe but if adam and eve never sinned would there never of been sex or more humans? why in heaven will there never be food (if there won't be) since God created paradise originally with food?

    Maybe God did not intend paradise to be forever.. and if Adam and Eve never sinned for some period maybe God was going to take them to heaven?

    MAYBE I SAID SOMETHING HERETICAL


    Adam and eve ate normally… but if in heaven no they would have not gotten kids… because they did not know that they were even naked!

    So he said, “I heard Your voice in the garden, and I was afraid because I was naked; and I hid myself.” And He said, “Who told you that you were naked?

    except if God would have showed them that they were naked… and showed them that they were capable of such action… but you are just asking things that NO ONE WOULD KNOW… BECAUSE ONLY GOD CAN ANSWER SUCH QUESTIONS!
  • 1000 years maybe?
    did God expect Adam to be without sin for 1000 years?

    God expected Adam to obey, and he did not. That's all there is to the story, if he had lived for eternity it would be in a state of corruption and sin. Otherwise, we dont know how long this "test" period was.

    Adam lived 930 years… On earth… yet you don’t know how many in the garden… so he could have even live one million years in the garden… that’s why no body knows how old the earth is…

    Adam wasnt subjected to aging or death or disease or anything before the fall, it was part of the Divine protection that we lost when we fell in sin. We can't possibly know how long Adam lived before the fall, its not important or relevant to anything either.
    I don't think the age of the earth has anything to do with this though.

    now lets talk about God expecting Adam not to sin… God created man in his Image… which is sinless… did God know he was gonna sin… ya for sure God knows all…. But God always works for the best…

    God didnt create man "sinless" in the sense that he couldnt sin. He created him free and in incorruption. If God wouldnt grant him a time to show his love for Him, then he wouldnt be free (and therefore not in the image of God, as God is free). Man was to show his love to God by obeying Him and keep this simple commandment, and even that small commandment was too much to handle.
    God knew he was going to sin, but God also knew that he would save Him, and that thousands and millions would attain eternal life with God.

    Why can't God dwell with sinners in heaven like He dwelt with them on earth?

    To understand the answer to this question we need to understand what heaven (or eternal life) is. Eternal life is to know God and to be with God. Sinners don't want to know God or be with Him, so its logic that God can't be with sinners the way he was with them on earth. On earth he was the one who came to them, but some will keep keep rejecting Him. And btw, God is omnipresent, he is everywhere, and God still loves the sinner, even in eternity. The problem is that the sinner keeps rejecting God and His love...so its not God who can't be with the sinner in eternity, its the sinner who rejects to be with God.

    PS for some reason the quotes can't be read properly (at least not on my computer, u'll need to select the quote to be able to read it)
  • Why did Jesus want to hide His divinity from Satan?
    what could Satan do if he knew anyway?
  • [quote author=mikeforjesus link=board=1;threadid=4811;start=15#msg65773 date=1167808211]
    Why did Jesus want to hide His divinity from Satan?
    what could Satan do if he knew anyway?


    He didn't hid in the exact meaning. He just didn't what Satan wnated which knowing if He was the Son of God. you think Satan would of just let it go if knew that Jesus was the Christ....no...
  • [quote author=mikeforjesus link=board=1;threadid=4811;start=0#msg65477 date=1167228740]
    1000 years maybe?

    did God expect Adam to be without sin for 1000 years?





    I only read the first post (the question) but anyway, Adam had no way to sin during those thousand years. Only eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. That was basically the only way he could sin in paradise. There was knowone else to sin with him or for him to sin with (until God made Eve from Adam).

    Another point, God had not made any rules for them (Adam an Eve) to break except-Do not eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil-and they did break that rule. Even if they did sin, they would not know of it because the did not have knowledge of good and evil something the tree provided them with.

    If anyone wrote the same thing before me, sorry for repeating.

    GBU all

    Tenoosht
  • Satan was confused about the humbleness of jesus Christ. He could not comprehend God apearing in the flesh. Satan does not recognize humbleness because he himself fell into the ultimate pride of trying to show himself as better than God.
    If Satan was able to recognize the divinity of God (which he definitly could not) then he would not have let Jesus walk to the death of the cross to save the righteous from hades.
  • satan could have pevented the jews from crucifying jesus, and that would mean that we would not have our sins forgiven
  • If Jesus killed Himself would that of been considered a sin? He knows He can take His life back again ..so maybe it won't be a sin..

    Did people have to sin by murder for Jesus to accomplish salvation?

    that seems to mean it was good for the jews to hate jesus and if there was no evil there would be no good..

    confusing

  • Well if he kills himself... people will think it is ok to do " JESUS DID IT!" SO Jesus knows how everyone will react and how everyone will react... and he went up the mountain of Golotha carrying the wood and everythin just like Abraham's son... when god told him to sacrifice him.. its all symbolic-- dont ask lol
  • and about if it would be a sin or not if he killed him self-- that is an unanswered q. and well it is for us bevause we are destroying Gods creation
  • adn well you dont rele have to worry about Jesus killing himself-- it didnt happen and never will lol
  • It would be a sin for us to kill ourselves even if Jesus did it.. He knows if He kills Himself He can bring Himself back to life.. if we kill ourselves God never promised we will have another life on earth.. we are tested only once..



    As to why Jesus said My God , My God why have You forsaken Me Pope Shenouda addresses it

    From the book

    THE SEVEN WORDS OF
    OUR LORD ON THE CROSS
    BY
    H. H. POPE SHENOUDA III

    http://tasbeha.org/content/hh_books/svnwrds/index.html

    God allowed that Jesus should suffer, sacrifice Himself and
    be tortured but did not break away from Him... It was not a
    separation but rather a dispensation. God suffered that His Son
    should suffer but still loved him fully, "Yet it pleased the Lord
    to bruise Him" (Is. 53:10).
    An example that may make the meaning easy to grasp:
    Suppose a parent accompanied his child to the hospital for
    an operation, let us say for the removal of an abscess; that the
    parent was holding the child's hand while the surgeon went on
    with his incision. The child would then start to cry and plead
    with his father not to let that happen to him saying to him,
    "Why did you forsake me? "
    44
    In fact, the father did not desert his child, he only allowed
    him to suffer since the operation was for his own good and he
    had only total care and love for his child.
    This incident, I would say, demonstrates how that could be
    considered abandonment without actual severance of ties.



    The Fourth Word
    "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" (Matt.
    27:46).
    This statement does not mean a separation of the divine
    nature of Jesus Christ from His human nature, nor does it
    mean that the Father has forsaken the Son. It means rather
    that the Father has allowed Him to be tormented.
    His divine nature and His human nature were never separated
    for a single moment or a wink of the eye. That is what we firmly
    believe in and what we recite in the Holy Mass... If ever His
    divine nature deserted Him, His redemption could never have
    been considered as infinite, rendering infinite salvation, capable
    of atoning for the sins of all humanity throughout the ages.
    Thus, there was no rupture between His divine and human
    nature.
    As for His relationship with the Father, the Father did not
    forsake Him. Let us only consider this verse: "Believe Me that I
    am in the Father, and the Father in Me" (John 14:1l).
    What is the meaning then of, "Why have You forsaken
    Me?"
    It does not mean a separation; it indicates only that the
    Father did allow that He should suffer; that He should bear the
    blame and suffer God's wrath over sin. That goes for the
    43
    emotional torment He underwent. As for the physical pain; God
    allowed that He should suffer physically though God, in His
    omnipotence, could have made Him insensible to pain. But, if
    that had happened, the Crucifixion would have been null and
    void - for pain would never have been experienced and
    consequently, no penalty has been inflicted, no acquittal effected
    and no redemption accomplished...
    Thus, the Father allowed that the Son should suffer, and
    the Son accepted that ordinance and was also afflicted by
    it. In fact Christ came to the world for that particular
    reason.. It was a rupture that both parties preconceived
    and agreed to... for the sake of humanity, and the Divine
    Justice...
    God allowed that Jesus should suffer, sacrifice Himself and
    be tortured but did not break away from Him... It was not a
    separation but rather a dispensation. God suffered that His Son
    should suffer but still loved him fully, "Yet it pleased the Lord
    to bruise Him" (Is. 53:10).
    An example that may make the meaning easy to grasp:
    Suppose a parent accompanied his child to the hospital for
    an operation, let us say for the removal of an abscess; that the
    parent was holding the child's hand while the surgeon went on
    with his incision. The child would then start to cry and plead
    with his father not to let that happen to him saying to him,
    "Why did you forsake me? "
    44
    In fact, the father did not desert his child, he only allowed
    him to suffer since the operation was for his own good and he
    had only total care and love for his child.
    This incident, I would say, demonstrates how that could be
    considered abandonment without actual severance of ties.
    The word "Forsaken " means that the torment of
    Crucifixion was actual and that God's wrath was
    excruciating... The act of abandonment was the climax of all
    torment on the Cross; all torment of redemption... Here Christ
    resembles a burnt sacrifice. An offering to God for the
    atonement of sin - to be consumed by the divine fire until it
    turns to ashes and satisfies fully the Divine Justice..
    A great number of theologians do believe that the Lord
    when saying, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken
    Me" was reminding the Jews of the Twenty-second Psalm
    which starts with the same verse.
    They were referred to as those who, Do not knowing the
    Scriptures (Matt. 22:29) while those Scriptures testified of
    Him (John 5:39). So the Lord Christ chose to remind them
    of this particular Psalm. Actually the system of numbering
    the Psalms was not known to the Jews. They used to
    identify each Psalm by its opening verse, as it is the custom
    among the Egyptian monks nowadays...
    What does this Psalm tell us about Jesus Christ?
    "They have pierced My hands and My feet, I can count all My
    bones; they look and stare at Me; they divide My garments
    45
    among them, And for My clothing they cast lots. "
    (Ps 22:16-18).
    It is all evident that David the Prophet, who composed this
    Psalm, had nobody pierce his hands or feet. Nobody parted his
    garments or cast lots upon his vesture. This verse was actually
    an inspired prophecy about Jesus Christ - as if Christ on the
    Cross was telling the Jews: "Go ahead and read the Psalm,
    starting with: "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"
    and see what has been told about Me. You will see also that the
    following has been said about Me:
    "A reproach of men, and despised of the people. All they,
    that see Me, laugh Me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they
    shake the head, saying: He trusted in the Lord that He would
    deliver Him, let Him deliver Him, seeing He delighted in Him "
    (Ps 22: 6 8).
    To analyze this entire Psalm would require more space than
    we have... It illustrates Christ's sufferings on the Cross. "Then
    He opened their understanding, that they might understand the
    Scriptures." (Luke 24:45).
    All that the Psalm described began to be realised. Thus,
    He was able to say shortly after: "It is finished. " But why
    did they not say, "It is finished" right after His pronouncement:
    "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" The reason is
    that there is another verse in this Psalm that was not yet realised
    which is: "My strength is dried up like a potsherd: and My
    tongue clings to My jaws. " (Ps. 22:15) this part will be realised
    later when He says: "I thirst ". That is why He said, "It is
    finished" right after.
    46
    Then why did the Lord Christ say: "My God, My God?"
    He said that in His capacity as a representative of humanity.
    He said that because He took the shape of a servant, and
    became similar to man. "But made Himself of no reputation.
    taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of
    men " (Phil. 2: 7 and 8). He said these words because "He
    humbled Himself", "and became obedient to the point of
    death, even the death of the cross" (Phil. 2:9) He spoke as the
    Son of man, who has taken over a human nature and taken
    man's position, and agreed to represent humanity before God,
    assumed all human sins and is paying off all their debts.
    Here we see that all humanity is talking through Him...
    As He assumed all human sins, and a sin is a separation from
    God and a cause of God's wrath, all humanity is crying through
    Christ, saying: "My God, My God, why have You forsaken
    Me?"...
    Christ represented humanity in so many things if not in
    all things! !
    Christ did fast on our behalf:
    Adam and Eve were not able to abstain from the forbidden
    fruit and they plucked it and ate. As for Christ, He began His
    life by abstaining even from all edibles. He was in no need to
    fast, but He fasted forty days and forty nights as mentioned in
    the church hymns.
    47
    He represented us in observing God's law:
    "The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of
    men, to see if there were any who understand, and seek God.
    They have all gone aside, they have all together become
    corrupt; " (Ps. 14:2,3).
    When Christ came, He represented humanity in being
    obedient to God. He observed the Law, "To fulfil all
    righteousness" (Matt. 3:15) as He mentioned at the time of
    baptism. Thus, He acted the part of humanity in offering God a
    chaste and a gracious acceptable life...
    He represented us in death, torment and the atonement
    of sin:
    "For He has made Him to be sin for us who knew no sin"
    (2 Cor 5:21). He suffered all God's wrath for the sinful with all
    the bitterness therein. And as a representative of humanity said:
    "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?" And He
    who helped everybody and has never forsaken any person,
    was forsaken by all, even by the Father. In that way He paid
    off our debt and suffered God's wrath and emerged triumphant,
    having been tried emotionally and physically...
    He also gave us that a poignant lesson so that we may be
    more cautious.
    If sin would have as a consequence all such
    abandonment and pain, we should: "See then that we walk
    circumspectly" (Eph. 5:15). We should be wary about
    abandoning God so that God would not abandon us in turn. The
    48
    Son Himself has been forsaken. The torment of being
    abandoned is unbearable. We should thank our Lord Jesus
    Christ for all that love and for all His abnegation..
    The words: "why have You forsaken Me?" should be a
    source of consolation for us when we encounter any difficulty.
    Knowing that if the Lord has not "Spared His Own Son" (Rom.
    8:32), why should we grumble about whatever suffering God
    allows? God was pleased to put His own beloved Son to Grief.
    And in spite of His saying "This is My Beloved, Son, in whom I
    am well pleased" (Matt. 3:17), why do we grumble at the
    moments of trial though we could never suffer as much as
    Christ suffered and though we deserve to be punished. The Son
    drank willingly the cup that the Father offered Him. He only
    said, "Your will be done" and was obedient until death on the
    Cross. His pronouncement: "why have You forsaken Me?" was
    not a complaint or protest, as we have said before but it was
    only an expression of the reality of His suffering and a
    declaration that the act of redemption is being realised...
    49
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