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Comments
hold your horses there, we are here to talk about saddam if you felt that people are judging him which i agree with you on that it is wrong, that's because we are humans and sometimes we judge others without knowing it. but if you have read all the replies you would find at least a couple of mine saying that we r not supposed to judge because we r not GOD and that takes us to the point of actually killing somebody whether it was saddam or someone else, who are we to give orders to kill people, we r not GOD still? or r we? people are just giving their opinions about saddam's salvation eventhough salvation at this point is impossible since he is DEAD ALREADY, but we can pray that GOD have mercy on him. and to beg for our salvation or pray to god to have mercy on us that's totally a different issue, we r not here to talk about us we are here to talk about saddam. no one knows if he repented or not, no one knows if he was forgiven or not, he doesn't have to cry and ask for forgiveness in a loud voice in front of 20 some people for him to be forgiven. the idea of killing him itself is wrong, maybe he wanted to repent, who knows? we just didn't give him the time. And we r not GOD, ONLY GOD KNOWS WHEN IT IS TIME FOR HIM TO GO.
Umm I don’t know why you are disagreeing... for what we said is almost the same... even though even the topic of his salvation is non of our business... this forum was made to pray for his salvation… or at least the title was… nothing else… lol… but why do we have to compare him… and talk about how he should’ve not been hung… oh ya! eriny God is the one that started the death sentence by the way and He’s the one that wanted his people to enforce it… read the old testament… you’ll be enlightened about the death penalty… but hey all I have to say is we don’t need to talk about the salvation of anyone… but all I have to say is PRAY FOR HIM…
I'm just going to address the issues as I read them.
Regarding the comparison with Bush:
It is not only logically inconsistent, it is historically inaccurate to compare Saddam with Bush, or any western figurehead for that matter. I heard someone say that Bush killed just as many people. This is blatantly wrong. Here's the history.
In September 1980 Saddam began what later to be called the "longest war of the 20th century." This war, dubbed the Iran-Iraq war, was started over a territorial dispute, mainly that of the shatt al-arab waterway. In this war, a total of one million people died. Why? Because Saddam wanted control of a waterway. This does not include the number of people who died years later from irreversible damage done by the extensive use of chemical weapons, such as mustard gas and sarin, on the part of the Iraqis. This does not include the wounded and emotionally crippled who would suffer from this the rest of their lives. This figure is a cruel, cold-hearted one. It knows no remorse, and it does not account for the millions of people whose homes and lives were destoyed simply because Saddam chose to fight the war on Iraqi soil to cultivate patriotism. How many lives did he end in those 10 long years of fighting?From how many people did he steal life and breath to fight over a stream of water, which was created by God and meant for all as sustenance. Not to mention the soldiers of the Iraqi army were young men who were forced, under pain of death and torture to fight a war they did not understand or care for for a dictator they feared; also, not to mention the fact that some of the POWs who were captured were not released until 2003, suspiciously close to the date the US declared war on Iraq. The second war that Saddam is responsible for was the Gulf war, also known as operation desert storm, in which Saddam, embittered by his losses in the Iran-Iraq war invaded Kuwait to reclaim yet more lost territory.
To compare this man to Bush is preposterous. Bush, for one this, leads an army of volunteers, men and women who choose to fight in the army. Did he kill them, or did they decide to risk their caused for a cause they beleived in? This is, of course, not justifying the war, for I personally disagree with it, but I do respect the men and women who chose to fight. Bush, despite his motives, cares for the sanctity human life. Despite his apparent idiocy and illiteracy, he is one who can rightly say that he respects people's right to live. Could Saddam, in the trial that he denied so many others, say the same? Can he claim the same respect for the souls God created with his very breath?
Now, regarding the death penalty.
as was already mentioned, the death penalty was first seen in the old testament, and God did insist on its use. As i think i have mentioned, the wages of sin is death, meaning that it is biblically correct for someone to die for a sin committed against God. I will clarify that I AM NOT discounting the power of repentance, but keep in mind that even Jesus says that there is a limit to forgiveness. Sins committed against the holy spirit, Jesus says, "will not be forgiven men," for the holy spirit serves as the facilitator of our repentance. Of course, with time, one can overcome this with true repentance. This merely serves to prove that even mercy has its limits. Also, regarding the death penalty, I agree there is much controversy regarding the fact that killing someone will take away his chance of repentance, but as was said, it is up to God when people pass on. If it was in their best interest to live, wouldn't God have intervened.
Regarding Saddam's repentance:
I am sorry. I did not wish to judge. I did not intend to condemn Saddam in the way that i did. I will concede that I do not know what Saddam was thinking at the moment he was hanged. What I do know is that his last words were a muslim prayer. I do not know what he felt, but I do know that he was quoted as saying he believed he was dying a martyr's death, dying for the service of his country and allah. I do know that his "service" to his country was that of Judge, Jury and Executioner to innumerable innocent souls. I do know that he sacrificed the lives of the men of his country for the possession of clumps of dirt and streams of water, which no doubt would run red with the blood of those he killed just as the earth cried out to God in sorrow at the death of Able by Cain. I do not know where he is going in the final judgement, but i do know that without the baptism one cannot go to heaven. In the case of the thief, who wasn't baptised by water, his blood served as the medium for his baptism. He died with Christ physically, as opposed to us symbolically dying with christ through the submersion in water. I do know that the thief accepted JESUS CHRIST as the messiah, the savior of the human race, the diety incarnate who came to redeem both jews and gentiles alike, the one true God. I know that the thief died with Christ, surrendering his heart to God. So you can tell me that Saddam did the same, and i won't be able to argue with you.
(I still agree with the previous post that said we should worry about our own salvation, Saddam's being a minor point in the discussion. I simply intended, in writing this, to respond to the fallacy of comparing him to the thief.)
Now im not defending Saddam. BUT it's important for anyone reading this thread to realise that the Iran-Iraq war was more complex then you laid out, and was not the fault of Saddam alone. Personally i think the Iran-Iraq war was really disgusting, and a huge waste of life, money, and resources. However America is much to blame for the drawn out time of the war as they publically gave weapons to Iraq, and then they privately sold weapons to Iran and massively inflated prices (to fund the Contra). Again, such realities are evidence that Saddam was not the only cause and player of the war. Rather Khomeni, Saddam and the American and Israeli (as Israel was America's agent in the Middle East to deliver the weapons to Iran) administrations were all to blame.
I could write more but this isnt an essay so....
Rabana maak,
Matt
how can u show salvation on someone's face...TV does not show us the heart of saddam..and off course i will ask to die with a gun ...less painfull and i will not cry to show my weakness on the last sec but i am pretty sure that he regrat all that he did in his past life...but until then ..i am not God neither is anyone ...so we do not know where he ended up and let us not GUESS because one Bishop said...even if you guess...you acted like God for a sec and guessin will later on turn in to conclusion
sorry if i disrespected anyone's opinion
pray for saddam and everyone --for saddam didnot believe in Jesus and was not born as a Christain but we were...therefore he has an excuse but what will we say
how can you explain the babies that were born and died before been baptized...i mean they committed no sin but were not baptized...so me and my friends ask the priest and He said....they will go to heaven but they will be as blind...because they will not see God...for the Bible say a person must be reborn to see the kingdom of Heaven...not enter it....roborn means that we are baptized and communion.
so if saddam repented and believed in Christ...he will enter the kingdom of heaven as a blind man but again i tell you...I DO NOT KNOW..for let God decide our salvation ....and lets worry about ours not others
pray for us all and the lost souls
"Jesus: O soul steeped in darkness, do not despair. All is not yet lost. Come and confide in your God, who is love and mercy.
- But the soul, deaf even to this appeal, wraps itself in darkness.
Jesus calls out again: My child, listen to the voice of your merciful Father.
— In the soul arises this reply: "For me there is no mercy," and it falls into greater darkness, a despair which is a foretaste of hell and makes it unable to draw near to God.
Jesus calls to the soul a third time, but the soul remains deaf and blind, hardened and despairing. Then the mercy of God begins to exert itself, and without any cooperation from the soul, God grants it final grace. If this too is spurned, God will leave the soul in this self-chosen disposition for eternity. This grace emerges from the merciful Heart of Jesus and gives the soul a special light by means of which the soul begins to understand God's effort; but conversion depends on its own will. The soul knows that this, for her, is final grace and should it show even a flicker of good will, the mercy of God will accomplish the rest.
My omnipotent mercy is active here. Happy the soul that takes advantage of this grace.
Jesus: What joy fills My Heart when you return to me. Because you are weak, I take you in My arms and carry you to the home of My Father.
Soul (as if awaking, asks fearfully): Is it possible that there yet is mercy for me?
Jesus: There is, My child. You have a special claim on My mercy. Let it act in your poor soul; let the rays of grace enter your soul; they bring with them light, warmth, and life.
Soul: But fear fills me at the thought of my sins, and this terrible fear moves me to doubt Your goodness.
Jesus: My child, all your sins have not wounded My Heart as painfully as your present lack of trust does — that after so many efforts of My love and mercy, you should still doubt My goodness.
Soul: O Lord, save me yourself, for I perish. Be my Savior. O Lord, I am unable to say anything more; my pitiful heart is torn asunder; but You, O Lord...
Jesus does not let the soul finish but, raising it from the ground, from the depths of its misery, He leads it into the recesses of His Heart where all its sins disappear instantly, consumed by the flames of love.
Jesus: Here, soul, are all the treasures of My Heart. Take everything you need from it.
Soul: O Lord, I am inundated with Your grace. I sense that a new life has entered into me and, above all, I feel Your love in my heart. That is enough for me. O Lord, I will glorify the omnipotence of Your mercy for all eternity. Encouraged by Your goodness, I will confide to You all the sorrows of my heart.
Jesus: Tell me all, My child, hide nothing from Me, because My loving Heart, the Heart of your Best Friend, is listening to you.
Soul: O Lord, now I see all my ingratitude and Your goodness. You were pursuing me with Your grace, while I was frustrating Your benevolence. I see that I deserve the depths of hell for spurning Your graces.
Jesus (interrupting): Do not be absorbed in your misery — you are still too weak to speak of it — but, rather, gaze on My Heart filled with goodness, and be imbued with My sentiments. Strive for meekness and humility; be merciful to others, as I am to you; and, when you feel your strength failing, if you come to the fountain of mercy to fortify your soul, you will not grow weary on your journey.
Soul: Now I understand Your mercy, which protects me, and like a brilliant star, leads me into the home of my Father, protecting me from the horrors of hell that I have deserved, not once, but a thousand times. O Lord, eternity will hardly suffice for me to give due praise to Your unfathomable mercy and Your compassion for me."
What needs to be said is some things others do may be partly or much my fault and some things may not be
God alone knows who deserves forgiveness if he is evil or not. There is an unforgivable sin which includes all forms of rejecting the will of the Holy Spirit which is repentance and many may commit it but we don’t know who. We know who it is possible and seems they committed it
I do believe I could harm many people by judging many people for their beliefs or actions but some or many of them are still responsible before God. God alone knows who is responsible. I am not responsible for speaking the truth that people know is true
It is perhaps up to us to practice some mercy but God set up the law and He made us subject to every countries law.
Those who can not be stopped another way like isis must die while they are commiting evil. Perhaps others deserve more time to repent
If, however, non-lethal means are sufficient to defend and protect people's safety from the aggressor, authority will limit itself to such means, as these are more in keeping with the concrete conditions of the common good and are more in conformity to the dignity of the human person.
Today, in fact, as a consequence of the possibilities which the state has for effectively preventing crime, by rendering one who has committed an offense incapable of doing harm - without definitely taking away from him the possibility of redeeming himself - the cases in which the execution of the offender is an absolute necessity "are very rare, if not practically non-existent." " (CCC 2267)
It seems like the biggest argument for the death penalty is if it's the main hope of protecting other innocent people? I don't know. Maybe it's a deterrent, maybe it's not. But I do know that Jesus paid the penalty for the death that I deserved, too. It's humbling to think that I deserved the death penalty as much as Saddam, but I accepted that Jesus paid that penalty by His own blood, and with that Truth in my heart, God's grace has been able to transform me and keep me out of trouble. God is so good. I feel like I would want to meet the worst sinners to tell them how much God loves them, and that I could see their heart softening through their eyes. But I might get hurt, which is scary, so... I keep praying from afar... I hope my prayers are making a difference.