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Hell, does it exist?
Well I was just wondering. Especially in Christianity, God is a merciful GOd. He wants to save everyone. Would He really subject anyone to eternal damnation?
Maybe there's just heaven, no hell..
What do you guys think?
Maybe there's just heaven, no hell..
What do you guys think?
Comments
Keep in mind that God doesnt throw anyone in Hell, everybody was created to LIVE, buttttt people CHOOSE to reject salvation and the existence of God in their lives. Consequently people cannot live in eternity with God because they refused the redemptive work of Christ, and they dont want to live with God in the first place. If God could choose he would want everybody to be with Him in His Kingdom, but man himself refuses.
And can the non believers not get somewhere neutral? Do we have to be thrown into the fiery lake just because we didn't have a spiritual revelation?
The greatest pain is to be remote from God, the seperation from your creator is the greatest pain and greatest hell anybody can be in. Consequently, some people on earth experience their lives as being hell, due to their sins and seperation from God. Isnt it then logic that someone who CHOOSES not to live God on earth, will be in seperation for eternity?
There's no place for neutral places for people who didnt repent, since they will still be in seperation from God, what kind of neutrality do u mean here? Less fire? lol
By neutral, I mean why do those who don't believe have to be condemned, even if the life they lived was a wholesome, successful and generally good life filled with positve productivity?
I don't see it as logical in the slightest; I am a very moral person. I consider myself to be pretty good down to the core. I never hurt a soul, I help where I can, I contribute to the betterment of the various groups I'm in. Yea I do have faults. But my life is far from hell, and I haven't chosen God, because as of yet he hasn't sent me any signs or anything that says 'hey, I'm here'.
By neutral, I mean why do those who don't believe have to be condemned, even if the life they lived was a wholesome, successful and generally good life filled with positve productivity?
Not doing what's wrong doesn't mean you're doing what's right.
Just remember two things: God is a merciful God, and He is a just God. He's not just going to condemn people to hell left right and centre, but we shouldn't take his mercy for granted either (hence the just part). Don't worry about whether the entire secular world will go to hell or not, just focus on your own salvation and trust God with the rest. Granted, that doesn't mean you should neglect everybody around you, especially if they are in need, but don't sit there and spend your precious time wondering if "Ghandi is in heaven" etc... Just trust God.
if you don't mind, can i ask what is your religion?
you don't have to answer if u don't want to.
I am sorry if maybe I was a litte too honest.
This wasnt ment to get ppl mad. I will have many other things like these and i want someone to debate it with me.
If you want to debate the reliability of the bible, well, thats a whole other story. Even that is quite easy, since we had a zillion debates about that subject while discussing the Da Vinci Code, with its many errors.
well i gess that u still dono that God is there and that there is one. when i asked you about your religion, i asked to know you really believe in. not what must know because your coptic orthodox.
also i agree with Hos erof. to learn about what you are asking you need to beliave in somthing because almost all religions believe that there is a hell but of course not in the same way. so i suggest that you verify your beliefe more spicific so may be someone here can help you understand that truth.
btw, i wasn't surprised when you said your CO. there is a lot of people that are CO but in reality they don't know anything about their religion.
a) What if one is an atheist, or otherwise doesn't believe in the existance of hell?
b) What do you see hell to be? Heaven but without the God? Or eternal hellfire and daemon spawn?
Second of all, hell and heaven are both real places. People will go to either one after the resurrection of the body and the Judgement.
So Hell is both physical torture and spiritual torture (i dont know how litteral the fire and the worms described in the bible are to be taken though).
there isn't a batter way to explain it than this. thanks Hos erof, :)
There's a big thinking error in ur argumentation. You assume that we get punished for being bad, and rewarded for being good, however, due to our sins we all don't deserve the Kingdom of God. We are saved through faith which is showed by works. If there's no faith, then there's no ground upon which one is saved. So, how can you say that someone who doesnt believe but lived a fair life should not be punished. All have sinned, and all should be punished in the first place. The thing is that Christ took that punishment upon him, and by accepting Him as a Saviour, we are saved from that condemnation.
That to me sounds like Lutheranism verging on Calvinism.
I dont know the detail differences that differ our believes from protestant, but this is what i was thaught all my life. It seems quite biblical to me too: all have sinned, we are saved by faith, we show our faith by works. I know there's muccccccccccccccccch more to say about this, it to me is just salvation in a nut shell. Oh well, my nutshell.
Nywyaz, i'm all ears, what is wrong with my argumentation, and what would make it "sound more orthodox"...
To have the good work's Heavenly_note is implying, one must first have faith, because good works proceed from faith. If there is no faith to begin with, than where do the works come from??
one cannot be saved through good works, but one cannot be saved without them. We are justified through faith.
Faith is absolutely necesary for salvation, and there's enough bible verses that speak about this.
You seem to be having trouble that good people, who do good works can perish. The reason for this is simply that we are saved through the blood of Christ. It's the one and only thing that can reconcile our sins. If i do all the greatest works in the world, and i dont accept Christ, am not renewed through baptism, dont get the Holy Spirit, don't get united with Christ through holy eucharist, dont receive the divine grace to struggle towards perfection, then there's absolutely NOTHING i can do that will save me.
If good deeds could save a person, then what good was the Cross for? Why did God have to become incarnate in the first place?? It doesnt make sense, does it?
am sorry but your faith and beliefes as a copt should never be a debate. debate for what, one against you own religion. on this debate of yours, which opinions or beliefs are you defending yours as a self person or as a coptic orthodox christian.
[quote author=Heavenly_note link=board=4;threadid=4170;start=15#msg57931 date=1153522615] Really? So what you are telling me is that it is imposible for people like ghandi, budda, my next door neighbor, maybe you next door neibor to get into heavan beacuse they font have faith which means that have not done any good deeds.
yes really this is the teaching of the bible, which is not somthing to debate with. and if you do, you are in fact a heritce. here is some verse of the bible:
Mt 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Also;
Mt 28:19
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
that means if you are not baptised in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit, you are ENTRING heaven. and that is our SOLID DOCTRINE that we believe in as COPTIC ORTHODOX.
The Bible clearly states, by my own and minagir's references, that you first must have faith to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
The second point is that you want to tell me that people are going to deny Christ as God and refuse his blood, and then expect them to go to Heaven??? How? If they refused his blood on earth, how will they accept the continuous and unceasing praise in Heaven? It doesn't make sense...
Also, who here does good things in the hope of spiritual brownie points? I do them to be nice (and, admittidly, to get that 'I did good' feeling). No good deed is selfless. Sorry, but for a Merciful God, that's pretty much just plain evil. He creates us, knowing that we'll sin. Then condemns us if we don't 'repent' by confessing our faith in a being we don't have any logical reason to believe in. And if we don't, well, sucks for us I guess.
If someone that knows about him and turned him down that is one story. BUt what of those who live somewhere in the world where they will not hear of it but even if they do and are interested get killed for it cause they live in china or somthing. Is that really fair?
Really? So what you are telling me is that it is imposible for people like ghandi, budda, my next door neighbor, maybe you next door neibor to get into heavan beacuse they font have faith which means that have not done any good deeds.
It is not for us to decide whether other people of other religions go to Heaven or hell. That is for the creator to decide, not the creations.
[quote author=Heavenly_note link=board=4;threadid=4170;start=0#msg57904 date=1153495964]
I don't see it as logical in the slightest;
Again, our minds cannot grasp God's judgement. Your opinion that it is cruel for God to cast us into hell has no weight. We are mere humans, God is...GOD. Trying to fully understand God with our weak minds and limited knowledge is like trying to examine one grain of sand upon an entire beach.
[quote author=Heavenly_note link=board=4;threadid=4170;start=15#msg57921 date=1153513176]
a) What if one is an atheist, or otherwise doesn't believe in the existance of hell?
If I say that the sky is green, does it make it that way? If I say there is no such thing as hell, does it mean it doesn't exist? No. If someone doesn't believe that something is there it simply means that he/she refuses to accept the fact that it is there and ignores the fact that it is real.
[quote author=Heavenly_note link=board=4;threadid=4170;start=15#msg57941 date=1153536296]
Further, what makes you so sure it exists? To my knowledge there is no evidence of the place existing.
THE BIBLE TELLS ME IT EXISTS. GOD tells me it exists. The Bible was written by the holy spirit (which is part of the Holy Trinity-which is GOD). Obviously, you don't really have too much knowledge about the Bible if you think that Hell is nonexistent.
[quote author=Heavenly_note link=board=4;threadid=4170;start=15#msg57941 date=1153536296]
Sorry, but for a Merciful God, that's pretty much just plain evil. He creates us, knowing that we'll sin.
Again, who are you to say that God's judgement is evil? God did not create us to sin. God created us to choose him over sin. God wants us to come to him and refuse the temptation of the devil. God wants his children to come to him rather than to be forced to worship him.
[quote author=Heavenly_note link=board=4;threadid=4170;start=15#msg57941 date=1153536296]
Then condemns us if we don't 'repent' by confessing our faith in a being we don't have any logical reason to believe in. And if we don't, well, sucks for us I guess.
GOD does not need us, WE NEED GOD!!! That is why we repent. And if you did know GOD, and did have a relationship with him, then you would know the "logical" and obvious reason to worship him.
By the way, God does not wish for us to be in hell. Hell is the only place without God's presence and God's guidence and light. Imagine a place without GOD??? In the beginnging (creation of the world) the consequence of sin was death. Therefore we are suppose to die. But Jesus Christ gave us a second chance and died in place of us on the cross.
I think that this is the devil trying to tempt you. He is trying to put thoughts inside your mind that make you question God's ultimate judgement. I suggest that you evade these thoughts for they will take you to the path which will lead to eternal fire, pain, and suffering. Instead, you should start worrying about how to avoid ending up in Hell, rather than questioning that it even exists.
I strongly suggest that you talk to your Father of Confession about this matter.
May God bless you and show you the true light.
Please forgive me and pray for me,
Godhelpme3691
Also, who here does good things in the hope of spiritual brownie points? I do them to be nice (and, admittidly, to get that 'I did good' feeling). No good deed is selfless. Sorry, but for a Merciful God, that's pretty much just plain evil. He creates us, knowing that we'll sin. Then condemns us if we don't 'repent' by confessing our faith in a being we don't have any logical reason to believe in. And if we don't, well, sucks for us I guess.
If someone that knows about him and turned him down that is one story. BUt what of those who live somewhere in the world where they will not hear of it but even if they do and are interested get killed for it cause they live in china or somthing. Is that really fair?
i think you're whole point is just justefing doing good as it is for your own benifit. you said doing good will get you good feeling, geess what feelings come and go anytime and we can feel anything we want BUT what you are still denying is GOD in general. let me ask you couple of quetions and before replying to any of the response just answer them first.
where did you come from? (don't tell me your parnets cuz that way, where did they come from)
where do you get the power to do all things???(to move, to have a body, to control that body to do anything on earth)
now, HOW DO YOU GET THE POWER TO DO GOOD?HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU ARE DOING GOOD? AND HOW DO YOU FEEL GOOD, if in fact what you said before denys it's source???
You speak about the ones who have not heard the teaching of Christ, but I ask you this, who am I to judge the work of the Holy Spirit within someone else? Who am I that I should say that the Holy Spirit is not inside him, teaching him about God, and he is refusing it? The work of the Holy Spirit is inside each and every living human being, it just depends if listen to it or grieve it. You say about the ones that would die if they believed in God. However you fail to see that our God is not of this world. It does not matter whether we live or die in this world, "For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's". Christ has said repeatedly in the Holy Gospel that whoever wishes to follow him must carry his cross first. Why? Because this world is not ours, and we are not from it, rather we are from heaven, and if we are worthy, we will return to heaven.
I agree with the idea that you should speak with your Father of Confession about this.