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Death Penalty

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  • Michael_ThomaMichael_Thoma
    Mark, that idea of justice works only in theory. In the real world, both sides are out to win. The prosecutors have to win for their promotion, and the defendants are usually stuck with public defenders that are overworked. The system is only useful for the rich who can afford their own lawyer. If you get a Public Defender who has 50 other cases, what are the chances he will defend you properly? There have been many cases where the PD fell asleep during trial!! Evidence doesn't lie??? sure it does. DNA overturned hundreds of "GUILTY" people. if evidence doesn't lie, how did they later get released?? I think your idea of justice is only effective in theory, since we are all imperfect, we cannot send someone to death based on our senses.
  • Mark423Mark423
    You are absolutely right micheal, I cant argue that. However, as it is stated in the bible

    [quote author=PrincessMary link=board=4;threadid=141;start=15#msg1068 date=1083342575]
    "1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience' sake." ROMANS 13:1-5

    Meaning that god has appointed people to seek out executions. From this we can conclude god is “okay” with death penalties taking place in the event the criminal truly deserves to be executed. So in the rare event they are wrongly accused, that is gods will; he wanted it to happen and if he didn’t he wouldn’t have let it happen.
  • Michael_ThomaMichael_Thoma
    You can't blame God for man's misconception of justice. God allows for punishment, but what that punishment is can be decided by society. In Islamic countries, Sharia Law is allowed. Is God ok with killing girls for not wearing a veil? You can quote that Bible verse, but I think it is being used out of context in this instance. God allows society to punish Justly, when we know that the Death Penalty is used Unjustly, God isn't "ok" with it. It is our duty to change unjust laws, not follow them blindly.
  • Mark423Mark423
    Micheal, EVERYTHING that takes place on earth, from simple things like us breathing, and getting sick to things like murders, the world trade center attacks, wars etc. are all his will. These events happen because he WANTS them to happen. He even wanted an angel to become what is now the devil. It was his decision. So yes, all these terrible things do happen because god wants them to happen…
  • Unknown
    But Mark, God doesn't 'allow' them to happen... i don't know how i can word this: but God permits them to happen, rather than allows
    i guess thats a better word... :-\
    i for one don't know which side to take
    if someone murdered me, i wouldnt want them to get the death penalty
    but if they murdered someone after they murdered me... then i think that that persons name should be on the case...
    just my opinion :)
  • Michael_ThomaMichael_Thoma
    God allowing things to happen is not the same as WANTING them to happen. God WANTS us to love Him and follow Him, but He allows evil to happen. God DOES NOT WANT evil, to say so is just plain wrong. God allows evil to take place for greater Good. In NO WAY does God WANT evil.
  • sleepymusiciansleepymusician
    The "evil" that you speak of is the bad stuff that happens. That's not evil, we're petty minded humans and don't know any better. For example if you fail an important exam you studied for, that's not evil, that's the work of god. He has something better in store for you.


    sleepy
  • Michael_ThomaMichael_Thoma
    I meant murders and wars, etc...not failing a test ;) Usually in my case, failing a test isn't cause of God either, it's cause I am lazy and didn't study.
  • marysmarys
    i always thought of evil as just the by product of our bad choices.. freewill is a gift, often abused, leads to our own demise.. so you're absolutely right, God's will for us was never to be our own worst enemy... but we turn His will down, and that's what we get..
  • Mark423Mark423
    I stand corrected… poor choice of words. Okay, he permits these things to happen…this still doesn’t change anything because it is clearly stated…
    “But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God's minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.”

    What more do you guys want? It says… the executer is God’s minister, and we should be afraid, and WRATH will be bestowed upon anyone who practices evil. It’s pretty blatant; there is no way around it. However I can foresee you will go back to your “what if the person didn’t do it” in this case god WANTS them. It was their time to go. It is a very odd way of someone’s life being taken, but that’s just how it went. So as for my poor argument of wars and the world trade center attacks; I retract them. But as for somebody being wrongly accused, that is something god WANTS.

    To add on to this… our almighty god also gives us the ability to greatly excel and develop. A point in time came where god no longer wanted people’s lives to be taken if they hadn’t indeed committed a crime. Our thinking process is finite and primal compared to God’s. We can’t fathom a scenario why he would want the lives of some people taken this way, nor can we institute a reason why he would no longer want this. The point is that perhaps god wants us to take a closer look at the process of the death penalty which is a reason forensic science has been used to prove the guilt/innocence of people. On the flipside, god didn’t give us the gift of intelligence and advancement so we could say “everyone should go innocent…” that is illogical.

    I must once again quote princessmary’s most logical post…

    [quote author=PrincessMary link=board=4;threadid=141;start=15#msg1068 date=1083342575]
    I think that if someone does something wrong they should be punished accordingly..but because an innocent person might be executed..id rather they just have life in prison..., but if 100% sure that the person is guilty and deserves execution then they should be executed. If everyone got away with murder...or whatever they did deserving death..then there would be no one to govern us, everyone will do what they want..if there are no authorities..when we see someone being executed for killing someone, we will have an example infront of us..so we see the consequences of evil actions. ...


    She said it best…

    -Mark
  • Michael_ThomaMichael_Thoma
    How do you figure life in prison is "getting away" with something? I think that life in prison is punishment. Everyone isn't going "innocent" either. We are just chosing a different form of punishment. Maybe God wants us to take a closer look at the death penalty to eliminate the process. If you do a search online at the countries that do use the death penalty and those that do NOT. The United States is NOT in very good company as far as human rights is concerned. For myself, the consequences of evil action is the original death, I don't need to see another one to believe that murder is evil.
  • youst718youst718
    I beleive that the death penalty is totally wrong. How do you teach someone that killing is wrong by killing them? it's like when a little kid hits someone and the parent hits them for punishment.. how is hitting the kid going to teach him that hitting is wrong?.... if someone truly deserves death.. thats God's judgement..not any humans judgement. I beleive thats life in prison is ok.. but the death panlty is not for any human to appoint.

    Plus i have another question.. Do u beleive that just because u commited an unlawful act under "influence" (drugs and such) that you should recieve a less punishment?
    my personal view about this is that if ur on drugs or smoking or anything of the such , if its not a pshychological problem, then ur not under any influence..the whole thing was ur fault.. u deserve an equal punishment as anyone who is not. If you are on drugs it was ur fault to begin with, your fault for taking the drugs and your fault for commiting the crime, i dont believe in the (excuse my lanugage) BS of the "under-influence" punishment
  • Michael_ThomaMichael_Thoma
    I agree that if because of someone's negligence and abuse of drugs, they shouldn't get a lesser punishment. BUT, I also believe that people should not be jailed for using some drugs, as long as they use it without harming or hurting anyone else, kinda of like the way we allow the use of alcohol and tobacco. I am not promoting these two, but just saying how government should not have a double standard.
  • sleepymusiciansleepymusician
    Yes, but if we start out simple with letting people use drugs to a certain extent, for themselves, what makes you think that they won't abuse the privilege?


    sleepy
  • Abanoub88Abanoub88
    Since sleepy and Mike both brought up drugs,
    I have just this to quickly say. How would drug restraint laws be enforced without a fear of jail time? It is that fear that make most think twice before doing drugs in the first place. Of course, not everyone thinks twice, as there are druggies serving out their sentences in jail as we speak.

    Concerning the death penalty though,
    I really don't think this is the correct way of putting it, since the Bible is the Holiest of all books, but it is seemingly on both sides of the fence on this topic. In the OT we are commanded not to kill. Then Jesus in the NT commanded Peter his disciple saying "who kills by the sword shall perish by the sword" (hopefully my memory serves me correct on that). And Jesus himself said He did not come to destroy the old, but to finish it with the new. I don't know, I'm very undecided.

    It's more than likely that our Church doesn't have an official statement concerning the death penalty, since our Holy Synod chooses to stay out of political matters. But anyone who has more information on perhaps an unofficial Church statement, it would be greatly appreciated if you could post. Or other opinions are welcomed as well. :)

    Let us worship our Savior: the Good and Lover of Mankind: for He had compassion on us: and came and saved us.
    - Chris
  • sleepymusiciansleepymusician
    ???


    sleepy
  • Abanoub88Abanoub88
    What? What did I say? Isn't this the death penalty topic?
  • egyprincessegyprincess
    ok, i wasnt going to get involved in this topic, but i was drawn to it ;)

    i am absolutely positively against the death penalty. we cannot take away life. we did not give it, therefore we cannot take it.

    we can never be 100% sure that the person is not guilty. even if by some way, we cannot kill them, for then we are taking any chance they have of repentance.

    for me, i think prison is worse than death. prison life is not easy.

    also, someone said that the there are two types of punishment, one on earth, and one with God. i heard the complete opposite. if u get punished on earth, then u will not be punished with God, (i think i heard that in a sermon and my mom is always saying that).

    one last comment, death isnt always bad for some crimnals.
  • sleepymusiciansleepymusician
    Banoub, you were perfectly on track, you just lost me, that's all. lol.


    sleepy
  • Michael_ThomaMichael_Thoma
    The temporal (earthly) punishment do to sin and the spiritual punishment are 2 separate issues. Although I oppose the death penalty, the real murder will pay an eternal price whether the temporal authorities properly found justice or not. This is because when a sin is committed against God, He is offended (eternally), no amount of earthly punishment can make up for that. Only through God's own Grace (Jesus) can anyone re-pay the eternal offense to our Eternal God.
  • egyprincessegyprincess
    im not saying that if ur punished on earth, u wont be punished by God, no, not at all. the punishment will be less with God since u were punished on earth.

    its the same thing with blessings and praise. if u get ur reward here, u wont get it the same amount in hevean u would gotten if u didnt get ur reward on earth.


    i really hope that made sense
  • Mark423Mark423
    No egyprincess, I don’t see how that can be true. You mean to tell me that a drug dealer who has spread sin throughout his life; somebody who has stolen, fornicated, raped, and murdered among other things; who is then captured by a rival gang then tortured and killed, wont be punished by god that much just because he was punished by somebody on earth before his death? I find that difficult to believe.
  • egyprincessegyprincess
    im not really into that, i dont want to believe it, but its the same thing as rewards. i dont know where the bible talks about rewards, but as soon as i find it, ill post it.
  • egyprincessegyprincess
    found the one i was looking for.

    Matthew 6:1
    "Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven."

    i think this relates
  • Michael_ThomaMichael_Thoma
    I think that verse has to do with intent. If someone is doing Good to be Christ-like, God rewards. If one intents to do Good deeds so other people will think they are great, then they have recieved their reward, adulation by others.
    In the case of punishment, no amount of earthly punishment due to crime will relieve someone of justice due to God. Only if someone suffers without need, someone with cancer, or someone who take a bullet for someone, etc... they are rewarded because they are not suffering for anything they did, only for the glory of God.
  • mike_henainmike_henain
    Totally agree with Mike! The heart is what matters.

    Epsaltos Michael
  • egyprincessegyprincess
    so if hte heart matter, the death penalty is wrong, cause it is blocking chances to change.
  • mike_henainmike_henain
    Egyprincess, they usually give you a chance to repent before killing you, plus some people won't stop unless they see someone being punished in front of them.

    Epsaltos Michael
  • sleepymusiciansleepymusician
    Today I was talking to my mother, and she brought up an interesting point. She was telling me about this guy who just died in prison. He was there because he raped, and murdered 17 kids, and afterwards he ate *certain* body parts. Luckily for him, he was in a state that doesn't have the death penalty, and he went to jail. My mother was upset about that, but I told her how it's not our job to take away people's lives for their mistakes, so she says, but my taxes aren't gonna keep a criminal alive in prison with food and shelter....something to ponder...



    sleepy
  • Michael_ThomaMichael_Thoma
    in the United States, it costs more to execute someone than to keep them in jail for life. Why? because the person is entitled to many appeals to try to get out of dying. Without these appeals, many more people will be wrongly executed ( there are already too many wrongly executed). The cost of life imprisonment is LESS than execution.
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