Skip to the content
Icon of Christ
› ›

Tasbeha - Kiahk - Expositions

Yoan
in Hymns Discussion
Hi,

During the Tasbeha of Kiahk, Ibrahim Ayad does an introduction to each Exposition:
- Amoini marenouosht...
- Tenouosht emefiot enaghathos...

Do you know where that come from?

Comments

  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    one of the commentaries in the kiahk psalmody have that introduction (I don't remember which). In addition to the vespers praise great commentary into of Tenouosht (longgg hymn). So it makes sense that the intro is applied to allllll commentaries.
  • Yoan
    Those intro are actually the ones we say during the antiphonary (difnar), one is for Adam days, the other for watos days.

    But what I don’t understand is that:
    - Ibrahim Ayad doesn’t just say those intro, he adds more parts to them
    - And he adds different parts for each exposition, it’s never the same

    So I was wondering where he got all those from.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    the difnar and the commentaries are kinda the same. in fact, a lot of the commentaries that are set for specific occasions (on modern day printed books) are just specific entries of the difnar of specific coptic dates.

    Can you share the recording plz?
  • Yoan
    I could only find up to the 4th hoos:


    I managed to get most of the content from the verses of the cymbals but there's still some unique parts at the end in each exposition that I don't know:

    - First exposition: Amoini, Anon kha, then the last part I don't know

    - Second exposition: Amoini, Anon kha, Ouon ouhelpis, ouon oumetcemnos (note that this part is different from the verses of the cymbals), then the last part I don't know

    - Third exposition: Tenouosht emefiot, Shere ne o tiparthenos, no additional parts so all good

    - Exposition on the commemoration of the Saints: Tenouosht emefiot, Shere ne o tiparthenos, then the last part I don't know

    - Fourth exposition: Amoini, Anon kha, Ouon ouhelpis, ouon oumetcemnos (note that this part is different from the verses of the cymbals), shere ne maria ticherompi, shere ne maria khen oushere, then the last part I don't know
  • minamakar
    Those are just the exposition readings. They are all in CR.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    The intros to the verses of cymbals ARE the same as the difnar. In fact, the intro of the difnar came first....the verses of cymbals are a bit modern.

    - Ⲟⲩⲟⲛ ⲟⲩϩⲉⲗⲡⲓⲥ and Ⲟⲩⲟⲛ ⲟⲩⲙⲉⲧⲥⲉⲙⲛⲟⲥ is a hymn that has a unique tune and mainly recorded and said in glorifications (tamgeed). But, now they are just said quick with the same tune as Ⲁ̀ⲙⲱⲓⲛⲓ ⲙⲁⲣⲉⲛⲟⲩⲱϣⲧ
  • Yoan
    Thank you for your answers it's becomming clearer.
    But I still have a few questions though, you're gonna hate me :(

    First exposition

    The difnar has on Adam days
    - Amoini marenouosht
    - Shere ne Maria
    - Ouon ouhelpic
    - Ouon oumetcemnos

    Ibrahim Ayad says
    - Amoini marenouosht
    - Anon kha nilaos

    - Why only Amoini marenouosht from the difnar?
    - Why does he say Anon kha nilaos which is not part of the difnar?

    Second exposition

    Ibrahim Ayad says
    - Amoini marenouosht
    - Anon kha nilaos
    - Ouon ouhelpic
    - Ouon oumetcemnos

    - Why Anon kha nilaos?
    - Why not Shere ne Maria?
    - Why Ouon oumetcemnos is not the same as in the Difnar of Coptic Reader?

    Third exposition

    Ibrahim Ayad says
    - Tenouosht emefiot
    - Shere ne o tiparthenos

    - Why for the first 2 expositions he says Amoini marenouosht and for the third exposition he goes for Tenouosht?

    Exposition on the commemoration on the Saints

    - Same question, why Tenouosht and not Amoini marenouosht for this exposition?

    Fourth exposition

    Ibrahim Ayad says
    - Amoini marenouosht
    - Anon kha nilaos
    - Ouon ouhelpic
    - Ouon oumetcemnos
    - Shere ne Maria ticherompi
    - Shere ne Maria khen oushere

    - The difnar has only 2 parts, why 6 parts for the introduction?
    - Why he now says Shere ne Maria while he didn't in the first and second exposition?

  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    you're complicating yourself. 

    Adam Difnar AND the commentaries intro is:
    - Amoini marenouosht
    - Anon kha nilaos
    - Ouon ouhelpic (Kinda optional)
    - Ouon oumetcemnos (Kinda optional)

    Watos Difnar AND commentaries intro is:
    - Tenouosht emefiot
    - Shere ne o tiparthenos

    Another that comes after those, it's mainly the text of the actual difnar entry or commentaries. ALSO, i recommend you follow books and sources more then live recordings. 
  • Yoan
    Ok, so the Adam difnar from Coptic Reader is wrong, hence the confusion.

    Live recordings and books are supposed to be the same, the Mo3allem follows his book.

    Regarding my questions, I can't follow the books as the intro for the exposition aren't written.

    For example, why on the same day Ibrahim Ayad says both Adam and Watos intro?
  • Yoan
    Also, why are you saying that Adam has "Anon kah" while on both Coptic Reader and Tasbeha.org (https://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/index.php?a=view&id=661) it's not mentioned?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    Let me think on it and look at some books and get back to you.
  • minamakar
    The introductions have less to do with the day and more to do with the tune of what's being chanted. The first canticle, and the praise that comes after it is Adam. Hence, the exposition after it is Adam. The third canticle is Adam, but the exposition is being chanted after ⲧⲉⲛⲟⲩⲱⲉϩ ⲛⲥⲱⲕ, which is Watos. Hence, the exposition is Watos.

    In general, the four canticles are Adam. Ⲧⲉⲛⲟⲩⲉϩ, the commemoration and doxologies are Watos. The Psalis and Theotokias depend on the day.
  • Yoan
    That makes sense, thank you :)

    Is there a video or website in English that explain the musical structure of a Watos and Adam tune?
  • Yoan
    Talking about the Adam intro, I’m currently in Egypt and when I say “ouon oumetcemnos” during the verses of the cymbals, the Mo3allem keeps telling me that there’s a mistake in Coptic Reader, it’s not “pikosmos” but “paikosmos”.

    Have you heard about that? What’s your opinion?
  • ophadeceophadece
    Hi @Yoan,
    I think your cantor is right but of course I await a more well learned response..
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ ⲡϭⲥ
  • minamakar
    We were taught at the institute to say ⲡⲁⲓⲕⲟⲥⲙⲟⲥ instead of ⲡⲓⲕⲟⲥⲙⲟⲥ. Either is ok to say...one is 'this world' and the other is 'the world.'
Sign In or Register to comment.