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Kyrie Eleison on Good Friday

Daniel_Kyrillos
in Hymns Discussion
On Good Friday, is the conclusion of the hymn in the 6th, 9th, and 11th hours Kyrie Eleison 3 times or 12? 
Pray for me.

Comments

  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    12
  • ophadeceophadece
    I thought it was 10?
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
  • ArchdeaconArchdeacon
    Here's a summary of the different sources:

    Los Angeles Pascha (the one we all grew up with) - 12 starting from 1st hour


    Jersey City Pascha - 12


    Connecticut Pascha (big black one) - does not specify, says to see Daytime Litanies page


    Albair Mikhail Book - 12


    Albair Mikhail Coptic Hymns App - 12




    I have seen Pascha books that specify 3 and 10 so that's probably where the confusion comes from.

    I went and looked in Ibn Kabar and he also does not say that the conclusion of these hours is any different from the usual conclusion with Epouro. He just says that they are "concluded as usual."

    The Los Angeles Pascha probably just assumed that the same method should be used for all hours to be consistent but Albair's book explains that this way of concluding the hour should start from the 6th hour because it is starting from that hour that Christ was removed from among us. He was first raised on the cross (so away from the people), then placed in a tomb. So it is not appropriate during those times to say Emmanuel is with us. Therefore Epouro is skipped for the duration of Christ being away from us, i.e. from the 6th hour of Good Friday until the Feast of Resurrection. If you review the hymns of Bright Saturday you will observe that Epouro is never said. All processions of Bright Saturday use different hymns.

    It is likely that the original number is 12 and it comes from the same 12 that are said in the shorter tune right before Epouro. Those same 12 are said and in the longer tune and Epouro is skipped. The other numbers (3, 10, etc) are probably attempts to save some time. Even those churches that say 12 don't say all of them in the full long tune. They say the first in the long tune, then the next 11 in the half long tune (Kyrie elei long but eison short), then the last one in the long tune. Clearly saving time is important in these times.

    I think the lesson here is that if you have a correct understanding of the underlying reasons behind rites, then you arrive at the correct answer naturally. It is my experience that understanding the rites prevents changing them for the excuse of saving time. The saving time excuse happens because people realize they are spending a lot of time on something they don't understand so they try to shorten it. The answer is to promote understanding the rites and not just blindly following what we see in books or websites.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear @Archdeacon,
    Thank you very much for the above.. It makes sense to me now..
    You also said "Clearly saving time is important in these times."
    I would like to say, well said.. And thank you..
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
  • Jojo_HannaJojo_Hanna
    @Archdeacon,
    Knowing @Ophadece, he may have agreed that your comment was correct concerning the justification of why they do that but I wanted to clarify that he is in NO way agreeing with the fact that cutting hymns and ruining rites are in any way correct to “save time”.
    @Ophadece = Do things right.
    The same way we should all be :)

    +God Bless+
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear @Jojo_Hanna
    You know me quite well.. Hehe.. No I was actually agreeing with the connotation of @Archdeacon's statement, ie resentment and regret that this is where we are now. I am not going to expand because I still feel quite bitter about what is happening nowadays.. Please keep me in your prayers..
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
  • minamakar
    The three may also refer to the tune of the ⲕⲩⲣⲓⲉ ⲉⲗⲉⲏⲥⲟⲛ. In Cairo they chant them like the annual ones from Vespers...even adding the ⲁⲙⲏⲛ before which doesn't make sense to me.

    But in other regions there is a specific tune for the introduction of the Paschal ⲡⲟⲩⲣⲟ where the first three are chanted in their melismatic tune followed by the remaining nine in the normal way.

    Cantor Wahba Erian

    Don't have this one labeled and forgot who recorded it. (If anyone knows let me know!)
  • Jojo_HannaJojo_Hanna
    @Minamakar
    The last recording is by Fr. Youhanna Nassif, from St Mary’s Chicago, before His ordination.

    +God Bless+
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    @jojo_hanna.
    I know it sounds like him. But is it really him?

    This also might go with the idea that it's part of the Alexandrian rite.
  • Jojo_HannaJojo_Hanna
    @minatasgeel

    Yeah, it is. I have this recording too and I’ve seen it multiple times in different places. :)
  • minamakar
    @minatasgeel I agree this might be related to Alexandrian rites. I am not sure if people read that ⲕⲩⲣⲓⲉ ⲉⲗⲉⲏⲥⲟⲛ is chanted three times in major tune and assumed the other nine are not supposed to be chanted. 

    I personally do not think we should chant them like the vespers ⲕⲩⲣⲓⲉ ⲉⲗⲉⲏⲥⲟⲛ. We chant that tune so many times throughout the year and for the sake of preserving traditions we only benefit from chanting it like Abouna or Cantor Wahba.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    @minamakar
    Eh. We cannot ignore the fact that local traditions are important. But we cannot take them and generalize them for everyone to say. Shed light on them, yes... preserve them, yes. But there isn't a need to justify the need to have everyone say them since justification is NOT needed to accept them. 
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