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No Easter?!

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  • mabsootamabsoota
    God knows people in many areas are not able to. So we should come close to Him in prayers and fasting and good deeds. Pray all the agpeya prayers if u can, if u r not working or babysitting. Rise up at night for the night prayers or praises. Repent for all those times you were busy with entertainment and missed Holy Communion. I think God will hear us when we all realise our great need for him and we are longing to re_enter His house
  • ophadeceophadece
    @Zoxsasi,
    You went to a grocery store? I am really surprised! You risked your life and lives of the people around you, or did you predict that they were wearing masks? Yes that is the whole issue I agree with you, if we don't go to the grocery store to get food we will die.
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    @ophadece,
    You're a smart fellow. I hope you understand the difference between "Give each other a Holy Kiss" - and standing in the same pew as 100's of other people, and grocery shopping.

    So, in grocery shopping: Only 2 people are allowed in the store at all times. You must give a distance of 2 meters between everyone else around you.

    You want to do that in a Church where we all have to drink from the same chalice??
  • ophadeceophadece
    @Zoxsasi
    No comment.
    Ⲟⲩϫⲁⲓ ϧⲉⲛ Ⲡϭⲥ
  • Jojo_HannaJojo_Hanna
    @zoxsasi
    I strongly suggest that you remove the very last sentence of what you said, simply since it is both inappropriate and incorrect (ignorant even).
  • PK281
    @Jojo_Hanna, I strongly agree.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    Im completely lost. Which last statement is inappropriate???




  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    @Jojo_Hanna , @PK281 - you are saying that drinking from the same spoon is not a health issue with this virus?? 

    How old are you?
  • PK281
    @Zoxasi, all I'm saying about this statement is that the chalice obtains the Blood of Christ. Where is your faith when you say that this is a health concern? Do you not think God is watching over us when we take part in Holy Communion? This is the BLOOD OF CHRIST! There are so many miracles of people with various sicknesses on a regular Sunday and nobody got sick after them, because this is a S-A-C-R-A-M-E-N-T. Please, find some ways to replenish your faith. That is all I am saying. God bless.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    Oh really? So if someone with the virus partakes of this, then the person drinking from the same spoon would have absolutely no issues??

    What about those with cancer?? Will it cure anyone with cancer?
  • PK281
    I said it previously, and I'll say it again: Communion is the Body and Blood of Christ. Take it how you will @Zoxsasi. Please replenish your faith. Peace and Grace of Christ be with you.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    @Zoxsasi....you're walking on eggshells right now concerning this topic. There are enough arguments online concerning this topic...you can join those. But you will not bring that here. I will say this though:

    - The Body and Blood of Christ is precious and it can never ever be the cause of death nor sickness nor the spread of sickness. That is not debatable...that is a fact.

    - The Body & Blood of Christ is not to be accepted with only the desire to be healed without recognizing that we are taking in God Himself, and He's the One that chooses to heal us or not. Moreover, the Flesh of Christ is not to be taken as something to stop us from sinning or to keep us from getting sick. It is not a magic medicine that is taken for everything bad we want to fix or stop. 
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    @minatasgeel,

    I have said nothing wrong. All I've said is that when having the Holy Communion, we will have to share the spoon - correct? Is that not a danger for the virus. 

    Then I get responses saying that I'm at fault here because this is the Body & Blood and it won't cause any problems. 

    I'm just curious, but then for you, according to your logic, if someone is dying of cancer, having Holy Communion would heal that person. Correct?

    Well, Why on earth have all liturgical celebrations ended? What am I missing??? Why aren't the churches open for people like you to go and partake of the Holy Sacraments??
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    Mashy, one more response to you and I won't accept more comments on the topic.

    The answer to your "dying of cancer" question is: we don't know. If the person is taking communion just to be healed, and wanting to be healed, and doesn't consider that God must choose to heal him or her, then they probably will not be healed. 

    The churches are NOT closed because of fear that people will get infected from communion [facepalm]...they are closed because of the number of gatherings. It's not communion, it's the people's presence together that is causing danger. That's why it's not just liturgies that have stopped, but EVERYTHING. And that is clear here in the Synod's statement to shut the churches for 2 weeks: https://www.facebook.com/CopticUS/posts/967124853703409

  • Jojo_HannaJojo_Hanna
    Preach @minatasgeel
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    Mina, I find your logic and rationale absolutely dangerous. I have no idea how you ended up as a Church servant, but your logic is mind boggingly dangerous, and you should not be given any position in the Church. 

    Yes, the Church has stopped all litugical activies to curb gatherings. Why are gatherings bad? Because that increases chance of infection: So having communion from the same spoon will not cause infection too? 

    So let's get this straight: let's say someone with a cold, and a cough, and shivering, was standing in line to take the Holy Communion - you'd be fine to sip from the same spoon as him or her? 

    Really? OK. That's fine, but you should not be in a position of service with this opinion. You ought to be given some responsibility where you are not in contact with anyone. 


  • PK281
    @Jojo_Hanna Lool :))
  • Jojo_HannaJojo_Hanna
    Lolll, @pk281 this guy is on a role :-t
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    Your perspective is equally as worrying:

    You are suggesting that anyone who has the holy communion is automatically immune from the virus because that's what the Holy Communion does?

    How arrogant. So you may be infected, yet you will still have the Holy Communion because you believe it makes you immune and others too??? What nonsense is that??

    That's so arrogant.
  • PK281
    @Zoxasi, I guess it just depends on everyone's faith then... but all that matters to me is that I beleive :)
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    You are testing the Lord here.. this is nothing about faith. That's spiritual arrogance.
    Your faith is so good, you are mocking someone?? 
    really?? 
    That is the fruit of faith?
  • PK281
    @Zoxasi No, I never had any intention of mocking you! I am just showing you that for some matters, faith is required. I am sorry if I offended you. Please forgive me.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    You believe that the Holy Communion will cure you of viruses, cancer, and illnesses? That's good. And if it doesn't - what then? Oh! Then there's Mina's backup plan: It wasn't God's will.

    What frustrates me in all this is the audacity in which you write. You do not see that you are forcing your faith on others?? So because you have faith that your virus won't affect anyone, we all have to suffer the consequences of your lack of faith if it doesn't work. 

    Why test God for?? Why even test your own faith??? 

    OK. I pray that God gives you the triumph you and JOJO HANNA and Mina wish for. 
  • Jojo_HannaJojo_Hanna
    God bless you, BROTHER (lol)
    Like I said in your PM, I had no intent of offending anyone or bothering anyone.
    I only wrote 3 times (barely even) although you said many false things before.
    @minatasgeel should have been offended, but he isn’t (or didn’t say so at least)...
    The same goes for @pk281 and @ophadece and me even, but no one showed such emotions because we are discussing a greater topic.
    Christ heals from all defilement and all impurities even if anyone says otherwise.
    God Bless.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    Forget me taking offense...i got used to Zoxsasi doing this through the years....i grew old to be ok with it.

    But i banned him for atleast 2 weeks to calm down. Call it an abuse of power on my side. 
  • Daniel_Kyrillos
    The idea that the Sacrament of Communion nullifies God's law of nature and biology is, indeed, ignorant. As our brother @//pharoah123 and other physicians have said, we need to stay home. We are not Jehova's Witnesses, claiming that medicine is stupid and that we should rely solely on God. He has given us an amazing and life-saving tool, medicine and germ theory, and it is irresponsible to the point of malice to disregard it. The Church is not services or hymns or priests or an Altar or even a gathering (ekklysia)- the Church is the presence of God in our midst. 
    I know a prominent servant in our church who is above me in the ministry has tested positive for COVID. Parents and uncles of family friends have died. This is not a joke. Ask anyone in New York or Washington State or the people who planned to pray Easter at St. Mark's Basilica in Venice whether we should celebrate Easter in one place. It is not safe. As has been mentioned, this disease spreads quickly and has an incubation (asymptomatic period) of 5 days avg, not to mention that many do not show symptoms at all. In small churches, the risk is low. But do the math, run a simulation, and the infection rate does not grow linearly (proportionally)- it grows exponentially with the number of people in a community. 
    I mean no offense to my brothers and sisters here, but I say with love, wake up!
    The point of social distancing is not to prevent you or your family from getting the disease- it is to keep hospitals from being overwhelmed. I wrote out a long scenario describing this, but we are all intelligent. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out that, given the incubation period and high infection rate, a priest or diakon being a carrier could EASILY infect a majority of the church, which puts a sudden wave of Copts in the hospital. That is the opposite of flattening the curve.
    God does not need us in a church. As we say in Psalm 50: "You[, God,] do not take pleasure in burnt offerings, or else I would give it; the sacrifices of God are a broken spirit. A broken and contrite heart- these, O God, You will not despise." God needs our hearts to understand the meaning of the feast we celebrate. And while it may be harder because we do not have the spiritual momentum of Lent and Pascha going into it, it is not impossible. There have always been times in the history of the Church where she could not gather for feasts, due to persecution or war or some other cause. We are now living through that time. Suffering for the health and safety of the world will earn us all a crown. Until then, please, stay inside. Meditate. Read your Bible. Do your own mini-Tasbeha. Read the readings and follow the spiritual journey of Lent. And most importantly, pray and return to God.
  • ophadeceophadece
    edited April 2020
    Dear @Daniel_Kyrillos 
    I never wished to have read these words from you but I am more than certain that your spiritual "stature" is far away above all of us and you are only doing that as a ruse to trick the evil one - at least so I hope.
    Without mentioning details again, and long arguments that I used with Mr Zoxsasi before he was banned, I hope you have the tolerance when I say you are not paying attention to how God teaches us to be "balanced" in our lives. You just choose some verses, or passages to want to express an opinion and that's it. The bottom line is I will conform to rulers and authorities when it goes along with God's teaching, but St. Paul also said in the same chapter, that nothing is going to separate me from the love of God, including current, past or future principalities, even angels (or archangels) - take this however you will (? corona virus is a principality?).
    Now as for saying "stay home" - no - I can't remember who said it, but there is no salvation outside the church. Please do not ignore the many tens if not even hundreds of passages when the psalmist speaks along the lines of wanting to live forever in the house of God better than living anywhere else. Do I choose to want to die INSIDE the church, when God is in our midst as you rightly said. OF COURSE.. without a shadow of the doubt.
    But the counterargument is that we need to be responsible; to conform to society's rules; to not rebel. I say that position is also wrong (but who am I? mere mortal human being unwise foolish and extreme). Christ promised us that we will have tribulation in this world (corona, influenza, cancer, AIDS). Indeed, we may be queuing up behind many people who have been exposed to HIV (I know I certainly have, because I worked in addiction psychiatry) as well as hepatitis B, C, or A (especially in endemic areas in Egypt)); have you been tested since? Will you find yourself positive? Well, maybe I will test positive to any of those, but that's because I have weak faith. If I have faith that this is not going to be transmitted to me, IT WILL NOT. God promised us and His promise is true "if you have faith the size of a mustard seed ... etc". You know, He even promised us that we will be delivered in front of judges and people will persecute us - oh no, certainly you wouldn't mean corona virus is a persecution; yes, I do. What if it is? But this time it is a persecution at the hands of spiritual forces, rather than terrorists - noooooooooooooo, this is completely different. I actually can be like Libya martyrs; I can die for the name of Christ and say it out loud and announce my faith before the whole world (cinematic drama). And now, we also can; if we go to church in the face of the whole world, and in the face of the evil one - not conforming to society. Will that happen though? I am one million percent sure it won't; but you know what, because we are definitely in the last few days on this earth, the laughable matter is that other churches do pray liturgies still, with limited numbers, but definitely not shut like we have done.
    Lastly, I am not sure if you know this or not; I am a doctor, I come to work everyday. Not only that, because of the amount of isolation of colleagues I am covering more than one ward (i.e. I am exposing myself to potential big viral doses); do I care? Of course I do. Can I say no? Yes, I can, in a free society like this, but I risk being fired (of my job), shying away from my duties (vocational duties towards patients and society), and risk poor health even if I don't go to work (in supermarkets, etc, because you can't just stop going to the supermarket, can you?) Now one would say this is very wise, and really responsible of you to choose to go to work for all those reasons, and certainly not only society commends you for it, but God does too. Oh yes, God does too, I do believe that, but He feels for me because I am helpless and I have to shut the church!!!!!!! Irony, or hypocrisy? Neither; it is just conforming to the authorities as St Paul says (Fady says with sarcasm).
    I am sure you know how many doctors died already (how many Coptic Christians died INSIDE the church so far please?) I am sure you know how busy and crowded wards are getting. I am sure you are aware that they are not stopping building new hospitals; all of this while the main law of the land (UK at least where I live) binds people not to leave home.
    OK, God bless us all, and pass us this time one way or another..
    Oh wait - edit - I stayed up late last night on my mobile and woke up late this morning, hence I did not think I needed to pray.. Hypocrisy? I know the answer...
    Oujai qen P[c
  • ShareTheLordShareTheLord
    @ophadece, initially I echoed your statements but eventually I started to believe the following.
    There’s a difference between dying in your church while defending your faith vs. dying in your church unwilling murdering others who may not necessarily be Christian or had time to repent. I know it’s bold and extreme to may consider it murder but is it possible God will see it that way? I do not believe dying in church would be even close to martyrdom in this case - I actually would wonder if God would count it as righteousness or as a means of condemnation... If you were to die now, not going to church but praying at home for his mercy during these extreniuous circumstances, is anyone salvation in peril? Now if the church is open and there is a chance of people dying at a result, I’d it possible God may judge this act completely differently than I would expect? (Those I am sure he will account for our willing heats, but nonetheless, I wonder...)
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear @ShareTheLord,
    I am sorry as I was not clear in my thoughts, or arguments (as always), but the bottom line is if I go to church with corona virus and all the people in the church have faith that God protects them, and they won't get it, then they won't - on that basis I would rather die inside the bride of Christ..
    Oujai qen P[c
  • ShareTheLordShareTheLord
    When Christ was in the world, was he susceptible to human sickness and diseases? (honest question) because the answer determines whether faith has anything to do with us getting sick or not. And in this case, if the answer is Christ would've been just as susceptible, then you may get sick regardless of faith - since we do not dictate to God what happens to us. Accordingly, it would be irresponsible to maintain church services as then we may literally kill someone unknowingly.
    ^let me know your thoughts on this train of thinking. I am truly curious.
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