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"H Agape" in Coptic

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  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    No niphiowi (heavens) is the plural of etphe (heaven). 

    The use of Pipneuma instead of pinifi has to do with bilingual nuance, not really theological nuance. Just like Copts use dwrea for gift, instead of piehmot, pneuma is used insted of nifi becuase it has a semantic difference. I'm not sure what the issue ancient Copts had with nifi. I can tell you that outside of the Bible, I have never seen nifi used at all, even when the text needed the word wind or spirit. Usually the word theyou is used for wind in Bohairic. In Sahidic, words for wind are tyou or tyu. Only in John 3:8 (The wind blows where it wishes) is pneuma used in both Bohairic and Sahidic. It seems to me that nifi really means breath or blowing which is somehow semantically different from wind or spirit. And while pneuma is understood as Spirit or ghost, I think the English translations of John 3:8 preferred wind instead of spirit. The Coptic translators clearly understood it as spirit.  
  • ophadeceophadece
    @minasoliman,
    as @Remenkimi pointed out edfa and nifawi spell with a fi but benifi with a fai..
    oujai khan ebshois
  • ophadeceophadece
    Sorry for my unlearned response of spirit and ghost. Maybe Americans tend to use the latter more than the Brits, but I was born in Egypt before I came to the UK so those subtle English discrepancies are not my field..
    oujai khan ebshois
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    That makes sense. One thing to consider that the Hebrew (and Arabic) do make a terminological between "nefesh" and "ruakh". On the other hand, our Ethiopian brothers use something similar to "nefesh": "Menfis".

    I find it telling though that the example for John 3:8 does seem to have a theological significance, as it pertains to the Holy Spirit blowing as He wishes it seems, connecting those the Spirit with those born of the Spirit.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Yes but soul in Coptic, nafs in Arabic is beseka from the pharaonic ka..
    oujai khan ebshois
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    No Ophadece, beseka or psychy is a Greek word that comes from the Greek verb psykow (I think) which means to cool down. This is why Origen stated the soul was warm with God before time began and cooled down to angelic spirits, human souls or demons. It is not a Coptic word and it has nothing to do with Ka.

    Minasoliman, are you now starting to appreciate why learning Coptic or Greek or any other ancient language is utterly important to a balanced understanding of Orthodoxy. You'll be amazed how much linguistics plays an important role in theology and theological discourse, from the Apostles all the way to patristics and liturgics.
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    Well, ever since the oopnevma vs pipnevma issue, I felt like I needed to appreciate and learn more about our language. ;)
  • ophadeceophadece
    @Remenkimi,
    absolutely right, my mistake..
    oujai khan ebshois
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    minasoliman said:

    Well, ever since the oopnevma vs pipnevma issue, I felt like I needed to appreciate and learn more about our language. ;)

    Also in addition to this, I also gave two books on Bohairic and Sahidic Coptic as gifts to a friend. Years from now, if we ever meet again and if I don't brush up on Coptic, she might know more than me, and she's not Coptic.
  • TITLTITL
    minasoliman said:

    minasoliman said:

    Well, ever since the oopnevma vs pipnevma issue, I felt like I needed to appreciate and learn more about our language. ;)

    Also in addition to this, I also gave two books on Bohairic and Sahidic Coptic as gifts to a friend. Years from now, if we ever meet again and if I don't brush up on Coptic, she might know more than me, and she's not Coptic.
    Sounds like competition to me X_X
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    minasoliman said:

    minasoliman said:

    Well, ever since the oopnevma vs pipnevma issue, I felt like I needed to appreciate and learn more about our language. ;)

    Also in addition to this, I also gave two books on Bohairic and Sahidic Coptic as gifts to a friend. Years from now, if we ever meet again and if I don't brush up on Coptic, she might know more than me, and she's not Coptic.
    Welcome to the reality of the Coptic language among the Copts: Non-Copts know, value, cherish and appreciate the Coptic language and Coptic academia much more than Copts. We'll just add your friend to the long list. But even in this, we give glory to God. For even through our language, without anyone noticing or acknowledging it, when people see the light of our faith and tradition, they glorify our Father in heaven.
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    Well, I'm doing it because she's a linguist, and maybe through her interest in languages, she may come to the light of Christ.
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    edited November 2016
    Sorry to resurrect this, but I wanted to explore other translations of "gift".  From the Thanksgiving Prayer, we translate "the Holy Spirit, the Life-Giver":  "Pi`pneuma E;ouab `nreftanqo".

    "enreftankho"...I know the last part "ankho" has something to do with life.  Would "reft" have something to do with "gifting"?
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    edited November 2016
    tanqo (I believe) is an abbreviated form of tianqo, which means "give life". This is the verb form. Adding ref before it, turns the word into a noun meaning "doer" of the verb, or person who does the verb. In this case, it would mean "the person doing the giving of life" or simply "life giver". 

    In Coptic, the word gift is almost always the Greek dorea. 
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear @minasoliman and @Remnkemi,
    Taio is a Coptic word for gift and it's used in some Sunday schools in Egypt and I also see it used in Newcastle. The Greek counterpart is doron. Dorea is the Greek counterpart of 'hmot which means literally grace but I guess it can be used as gift too..
    Oujai khan ebshois
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    Ah, so literally a "lifer" if we were to create a word.
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    edited November 2016
    Wouldn't a "lifer" also mean one who has life? Reftankho literally means the one who gives life. So unless we can semantically distinguish one who gives life and one who has life, then "lifer" is too ambiguous. Plus, life in English is not a verb. So lifer is a grammatical impossibility.
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    edited November 2016
    Well, that's the point, considering that "life-giver" is one who "gifts" life, a literal translation from the Coptic would probably some verb form of "life" that does not exist in English. Hence my [very poor attempt of an] example of "lifer". Not that I'm saying that it's not an accurate translation. I'm just imagining what an exact Coptic philology would be with broken English.

  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    Technically, there is no Coptic verb for life. Life itself is "onkh" in Bohairic Coptic and "ankh" in Ancient Egyptian all the way down to Sahidic. The verb in Coptic is "ti" which literally means "give". So there are 4 morphemes in the word "Pireftankho": 
    1. pi = definite article "the"
    2. ref = grammatical converter of verb to noun.
    3. ti = Verb "give"
    4. ankh/onkh = noun meaning "life"

    In English, there are also 4 morphemes for "the life giver".
    1. the = definite article
    2. life = noun 
    3. give = verb
    4. r = doer of the verb

    So life-giver really is a literal translation from Coptic. We don't need broken English.
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    edited November 2016
    Thank you :) that makes more sense now
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