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Divorce in the Coptic Church

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  • miracleseek
    This might be a hard question, but how do you explain divorce (when it happens) in a Christian way to kids at school age. If the adulterous goes out and gets married. How can you explain that to kids at school age (you don't want to alienate the adulterous spouse and yet it you want to tell them that this is against the scriptures)
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    I think what matters is that the children do not think it is their fault.  Sometimes, they might feel like they caused the rift.  What they need to know is that what happened between you and their mother is that something did not work out as planned, and that it is not their fault, and that you and their mother still love them and still will take care of them.  When they get older and emotionally ready, they'll understand.

    What does your priest think in this matter?
  • miracleseek
    The priests are not yet thinking of this point. They are praying (as me) for reconciliation. I re empathize to the kids that God, mom and Dad love them the most and will take care of them forever.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    Miracleseek....I really don't think comments on our forum are the best advices you can get for something as serious and as life-changing as what you are mentioning. You need to find professional individuals, ideally Copts, to help and answer all your questions.
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    +1

    Have you considered a therapist that is also in the Church?
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    I get the impression that miracleseek's question is not being answered. I don't think he/she is asking how to speak or describe divorce for himself to his/her children. (I'm going to assume you're a male.) I get the feeling that he is asking how to speak to other people's children who have gone through divorce in a way that does not alienate the children from their parents or God. 

    The question really pertains to us all. It doesn't matter if the offense committed is adultery, divorce, or any other sin. How do we explain to children to cope with sin that their closest family members (which is often ourselves, not others) have committed without passing blame?

    I think it comes down to two things. 
    1. We correlate man's fall with each other as God gave us examples of how he deals with mankind in general. There are plenty of stories in the Bible where man continues to sin even after God forgives. God knows man will fall, yet he always takes care of man. The entire book of Judges is a good starting point. When we sin, we know God allowed sin to happen so we can learn how to come to him. It doesn't make God evil. It doesn't make us evil. It makes us rely on God's mercy and love. So divorced couples must show their children that the sinful act does not negate or destroy mercy and love for each other and to their children.

    2. The fact of the matter is all sin has consequences. While miracleseek and other servants who are trying to help the victim children of divorce, there is no denying that the couple brought on the problem and they need to fix the problem themselves. If they don't they will be judged twice. Once for the sinful act and once for neglecting their children. Without true repentance from the couple, their children will be lost. There is no way to sugar coat this to children. Children are smart enough to recognize this truth, regardless of their age. The best one can do to help divorce children is to get the parents to shape up and prevent the real problems of divorce (losing their own salvation and the salvation of their children). Again, this pertains to all of us. It doesn't matter what the sin is. My sin has consequences. And while God's mercy does not end, I cannot simply wish the consequence of my sin to go away. I have to fix the damage I caused before the real damage of sin occurs (eternal condemnation). 

    I hope this helped. If I misunderstood your question, please let us know.
  • miracleseek
    Thanks Remnkemi...The issue that I struggle the most with is to how to tell the kids that we love God, we know divorce against God, the concept of monogamy and in the meantime their parent is doing just that. I pray for their parent for forgiveness and mercy. I am struggling with teaching them one thing and they see contradiction.
    Thanks
  • IoannesIoannes
    This whole thread highlights the insanity of the people in the church. Wailing and moaning about divorce but totally cool with the church becoming protestant. Its none of anyones business who gets divorced for what reason, it is between the couple and God and whomever they choose to involve. Stop worrying about peoples personal life and take care of the church that is crumbling before your eyes you morons.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    Ioannes said:

    This whole thread highlights the insanity of the people in the church. Wailing and moaning about divorce but totally cool with the church becoming protestant. Its none of anyones business who gets divorced for what reason, it is between the couple and God and whomever they choose to involve. Stop worrying about peoples personal life and take care of the church that is crumbling before your eyes you morons.

    What can we possibly do to stop the Church becoming protestantised? How is it becoming protestantised? Yes, I think we have a huge amount of people going to protestant churches, and they bring their protestant hymns, spirituality and philosophy into our Church; that's true, but is it everywhere? Is it widespread? 

    I think it is quite widespread (personally).

    What can we possibly do about this??
  • qawe
    Zoxsasi said:

    Ioannes said:

    This whole thread highlights the insanity of the people in the church. Wailing and moaning about divorce but totally cool with the church becoming protestant. Its none of anyones business who gets divorced for what reason, it is between the couple and God and whomever they choose to involve. Stop worrying about peoples personal life and take care of the church that is crumbling before your eyes you morons.

    What can we possibly do to stop the Church becoming protestantised? How is it becoming protestantised? Yes, I think we have a huge amount of people going to protestant churches, and they bring their protestant hymns, spirituality and philosophy into our Church; that's true, but is it everywhere? Is it widespread? 

    I think it is quite widespread (personally).

    What can we possibly do about this??
    Visit the website www.returntoorthodoxy.com
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    Ioannes said:

    This whole thread highlights the insanity of the people in the church. Wailing and moaning about divorce but totally cool with the church becoming protestant. Its none of anyones business who gets divorced for what reason, it is between the couple and God and whomever they choose to involve. Stop worrying about peoples personal life and take care of the church that is crumbling before your eyes you morons.

    No it is not simply between God and whomever they choose to involve. As miracleseek wrote in the OP, he/she is asking about children of divorce. These children, and others like them, are asking servants about their adulterous parent's new spouse. We have to be prepared to find ways to address these children's concerns by discussing these issues as fellow servants and fellow Christians. 

    In addition, the protestantization of the Church has no bearing at all on the Church views divorce or how the Church pastorally deals with divorced families or how fellow Christians view divorce. Divorce and protestantization are two completely separate issues. As qawe pointed out, there is already grassroots movement among the Coptic faithful battling the protestantization of the Coptic Church. No one is simply sitting by oblivious, doing nothing while watching the Church crumble. Even if you were correct and nothing is happening to combat protestantization of the Church, taking a semi-liberal stand (if we can even call doing nothing a semi-liberal position) on one issue does not negate or illustrate hypocrisy by taking a conservative stand on another issue.

    In addition, we all welcome everyone's opinions and discuss everyone's concerns. Please refrain from using any offensive language and name calling to those whom you oppose (or think you oppose).
  • YoussefElMeskeen
    The late HG Bishop Gregarious has said in his book on Church cannons and councils, "a marriage is a spiritual entity consisting of three parties: God presented through the Church that keeps His laws and commandments through the Bible, a full/complete man and a full/complete woman (complete/full in a biological and physiological sense)."
    If a man or a woman have hidden a disease (specially those that affect one's sexuality- make the individual less of a man or a woman as HG describes it), criminal record, etc., then annulment is declared by the church. Both parties are allowed to get married after to someone else as long as they abide by church cannons and reveal every issue they have prior to marriage.
    As for divorce, it is only for the reason declared in the gospels which is adultery (betraying the Orthodox faith is a spiritual form of adultery).
  • miracleseek
    So the day has came, when my youngest son asked how can you be married to two men. I almost wished that I was forever mute when the question was posed. I tried to say it is not right, but some people will follow the own thinking and think that is right. I posed the question to some priests and they told me to say flat out that whatever the mother is doing is not right. In the same time, you can be viewed as alienating the child from the other parent.
    I need lots of prayers for wisdom on how to handle these questions.
  • Prayforrepentance
    I have a question not sure if this is the appropriate thread but my spouse admits to physical adultry, but claims to have repented. I am willing to forgive however therin no repentance is shown, lives seperated and has left the home. We have two kids and he/she recieves communion and confesses to a father of confession regularly. Yet they are the ones initiating the divorce. There claim is emotional abuse has pushed them to the point they can no longer tolerate the marriage. I have sinned and may be guilty of neglect however i have always put an effort to make the marrige work. I guess my question is can a divorce be granted to the sinning party if the victim is willing to forgive and continue the marriage?
  • JoshuaaJoshuaa
    In the gay marriage question, they break the first covenant of God looking after mankind from generation to generation. It is in our liturgy and they cannot produce heirs as God wills. The love is corrupted and cannot produce more love through children.

       In divorce, I not sure but I think we look to God's mercy instead of the problem being a matter solely of sin. God's mercy is His crown and we would probably see at as His tolerance to sin , but His mercy is infinite and so the sin would have to be probably so big that the couple have no hope of unity, but if one who is strong lives in hope through Christ then that one seeks to save the other. 
  • JoshuaaJoshuaa
    Adultery as a sin is also corrupted and the couple are no longer in the unity of Christ and don't represent Christ to others. As for other issues, they are sinful but the sin of abuse is trials and tribulations in which we all have.
  • JoshuaaJoshuaa
    Only a select group of Bishops can grant the spiritual divorce. What is their criteria? I don't know, I would of thought that one party would totally be not willing to reconcile with their sin and in doing so be a total stumbling block to the other throughout what lifes they have.
    I mentioned gays because repentance requires a change in the person, and I pointed out that they can not conceive children as in God's will. So are they able to have the change in personality required for repentance? There is the stumbling block of sin which is pride and it makes excuse for behavior and in this excuse it gains numbers that they justify themselves and won't be moved.
    Likewise the adulterer, in self pity makes the excuse that living in unity with the married spouse is too hard and looks for comfort elsewhere. Some repent but some refuse to make the change for the sake of repentance. So what they are saying is I am refusing to repent so I'm happy to keep this distance from His salvation. That's their choice but can't they depart from the one who wants to be close to God and not be a stumbling block to them?
  • JoshuaaJoshuaa
    I will always be a hopeless Jonah even though the fish spat me out and seek a commonlaity through my past sin that they may join me in repentance.
    In pride people justify themselves believing the humble are weak so are never helping the humble because they put themselves above in knowledge or success and are self-righteous.
    Helping is the Christian ethic.
  • JoshuaaJoshuaa
    Prayforrepentance I think you will have to humbly ask yourself: Is the marriage wotth your effort? It sounds like both sides are suffering (if it was for Christ's sake then there wouldn't be a problem) and that the chilrens welfare has become second place when it does come first.
    Marriage is hard and takes reconciliation. Women worry and men are frustrated and they can't seem to reconcile to either problem in solving it together. The only true support either side needs is God. The suffering is something you learn from and is often the case no-one wants to suffer. If you want that mediory help seek your Bishop if your partner isn't being true to your father of confession.
  • JoshuaaJoshuaa
    Another reason why marriage is hard is because the sacrament of Matrimony is not one that is required for salvation. So if we fulfill the sacraments that are required and the first and foremost one being the sacrament of repentance then the couple would not use pride as a means to defend their dignity. The wall goes up straight away and the women's left with her worry and the man with his frustration and both seek comfort. The woman wants to be listened too and the man might stray.
    The sacraments give us unity with God and ourselves. Strive for them and fulfill them to resist the devil for he has many stumbling blocks to God's blessings.
  • JoshuaaJoshuaa
    I pray that God grants peace and solice to both you and your family Prayforrepentance.
  • JoshuaaJoshuaa
    I am sorry Prayforrepentance,    I haven't been as empathic as much as I should be. I will tell you the problem so you may understand.
      When I was young my mother told me not to be sorry for myself, so I wasn't, and I found myself quite strong not having self-pity and I became humble and never saying much and always sorry even if the problem on my part was very small. I understood suffering as I saw and experienced it so much.
       However, I was single and wasn't prepared for marriage. What makes it hard is argument. There is argument in all, if not most marriages and it is there sadly, where we lose our humbleness and cease to be ourselves. Argument brings up pride and moment we defend ourselves. The devil has his work done when we lose our humbleness and become proud and it is in all argument. Pride puts us above others and assumes leadership.

        In divorce, the devil has done his work and split the loving couple and deceived them out of their humbleness as pride is the opposite of humble. If you are having a problem and want a chance of making up you may have to listen to your spouses argument and accept it, even if it is just one percent true and say sorry to them in all humbleness and forgive them. We can't make the other one accept however, and this has to be realized as well.

       I pray that all married couples see their fathers of confession when they have arguments, he can quieten the pride and restore humbleness to their marriage and the couple will be themselves in the way that brings forth love. I pray they will be able to listen to each other in an empathic way and forgive easily.

  • SJCSJC
    Amen.
  • Uknown
    Hi All, i have a question regarding the divorce process. what is the church's stance on the following scenario

    a case of cheating with evidance is provided to the council, however the couple are battling between reconcile and divorce. This period has been going on for months and they are neither divorced or reconciled yet and the council has not intervened or decided on the case. 

    the question is if the couple engage in marital connection (sex) during this period. does the church consider this as the "victim" of the case agreed to reconcile and disprove to approve the divorce? even thought they have not officially agreed on reconciling?
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    Good question. Divorce itself is a sin and sex does not absolve a couple of this sin. God absolves sin through the Church to the bishop to the priest through the sacrament of repentance. Sex also does not constitute acquiescence. If a separated couple has sex and continues to live in enmity and proceed with divorce protocols, then the Church may consider the sex as sin, not reconciliation or silent consent or immediate forfeit of a spousal rights.  
  • Uknown
    thanks Remnkemi, in that case if the church in the case of enmity and proceeding with the divorce protocol and church considers that instance of sex as a sing. does that mean both parties are considered adulterer's of the marriage? this doesnt make sense because even during seperation the church see's these two people are married in the eye's of the church, so how can it be a sin?

    what do you mean also by "immediate forfeit of a spousal rights." are you talking about the spousal rights of sex in marriage, or spousal right of divorce if they (the one who didnt cheat) not to reconcile?
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    I meant the spousal right to divorce since you were talking about the "victim" of the infidelity. 

    Just because two people are married in the church, doesn't mean they can't sin sexually. Sex is the act of sacrificial love and unity, not a carnal desire that must be satisfied. Having sex while hating the other person is a sin, just like when Amnon slept with his half sister Tamar (2 Samuel 13). 
  • MazUK1987
    edited June 2024
    I am a 37 year old Coptic Orthodox woman. My whole family are Coptic Orthodox Christians. I was born in the UK and I have never ever understood why a husband has the right to beat his wife up and rape her and cheat on her and get away with it! The fact that you do not reprimand it, means you are fully accepting towards this behaviour and is the reason why most men want to get married, because they know very well that they have FULL AUTHORITY AND POWER TO GOVERN AND RULE THE MARRIAGE RELATIONSHIP even if they commit adultery. Also any husband now knows that even if they beat up, rape, humiliate and cheat on their wives, it will be the woman's fault!!!! This is causing more problems for marriage within the Coptic Church rather than solving them. The muslims and the west are very aware of this issue in the Coptic Church and everyone knows full well that these problems regarding marriage in the Coptic Church is what will destroy the church in future if it is not resolved. 

    I can't understand how a man can go to work and is FORCED to respect his colleagues and treat them with respect! Whilst he goes home and does whatever he wants to his wife, beating her, raping her, cheating on her and she gets the blame! Why?

    It is illegal for anyone to go to work and beat up their colleagues! Why on earth should it be ok for a man to beat up his wife, who is supposed to be supported and helped by him, more so than his colleagues?! As if a man's duty at work is more important than a man's duty to his wife at home.

    To be honest, I myself am not married, I have never been married nor have I been in any serious relationship. I simply can't believe the amount of pressure I get in Egypt, from people outside my family, even when visiting a church or a monastery, where the monk priest (who I met for the very first time) took half a day trying to convince my Mum, my brother and I that I should be married by now.

    I am perfectly joyful,  happy and living a very normal, mature and acceptable Coptic Christian Orthodox life with regular confessions, at least once a month, with my Coptic Orthodox father of confession who is amazing and knows me so well. I am so lucky to have an amazing father of confession like him. However, I know for a fact that others are not so lucky regarding their fathers of confession who can help ruin a woman's life as much as they can build it up successfully.

    It pains me to see my Coptic orthodox Church that I love to pieces being destroyed by corrupt men who think they can get away with anything!

    If our loving Lord Jesus Christ had compassion on many, many, many repentant sinner men & women, how much should we wash the feet of our wives and husbands of our church!








  • MazUK1987
    Also, a note to add; if you think that a man's work is more important than a man's wife, then why isn't work considered to be a religious sacrament? Will I go to hell for not having a job? Or will I go to hell for beating up, raping and cheating on my wife?
  • mabsootamabsoota
    i am really sorry to hear of this, i suppose you know someone this has happened to.
    it is deinitely not allowed and i know of several couples who had big issues and abouna talked to both of them and it got sorted out.
    i even know someone who was hit by her husband and he got in very big trouble in the community and with abouna and he started repenting and taking holy communion and is now a changed  man.
    so things can / should go well and i will pray for those families where it doesn't.

    also happy feast of ascension
    :)
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