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  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    There are some ecclesiology problems with this statement and the AOCA? Is the AOCA a diocese within a diocese? Or more importantly, can a Coptic diocese create a non-Coptic diocese within its borders? 

    This document states there is a distinction between AOCA and the Coptic Church. They are both part of the See of Alexandria but they are two entities. Bishop Youssef was ordained and a Coptic diocese was established in the Souther United States, not a AOCA diocese. So can a Coptic bishop establish a non-Coptic diocese within his diocese?

    The only way I see out of this is (1) No he can not establish a non-Coptic diocese church or (2) Yes because the AOCA is not a separate entity but a new title for a new project in the Coptic Church. If we say #1 and the AOCA has been established, then we are in serious trouble with the councils and we have distorted God's image of the Church, his bride. If we say #2, then there really is nothing to announce in this press release. If we say #2, then the AOCA is not a real entity and there is no need and no truth by saying the AOCA is "like the Coptic Church". It is the Coptic Church and the distinction between the AOCA and the Coptic Church does not rise to the level of another church under the See of St Mark.

    Also what does it mean to "not to remove difficult or unfamiliar elements from the Coptic Church and present it to Americans that want a wide-road approach"? The very definition of a wide-road approach is to remove difficult or unfamiliar elements or obstacles that exclude some people. This implies one sees these "difficult or unfamiliar elements" as unimportant or negative. In this case, the wide-road approach requires removing some (if not all) difficult or unfamiliar elements. If I am way of base here, please someone clarify it for me.

    Additionally, if the AOCA is not going to remove "difficult or unfamiliar elements", what exactly is "an authentic, undiluted Orthodox faith" made "accessible to Americans"? If nothing is getting removed, then the "authentic, undiluted Orthodox faith" IS the Coptic Church with all its elements and it IS already "accessible to Americans". 

    Let's call a spade for what it is and stop pretending it is a diamond. The AOCA is the Coptic Church for those who don't like things about the Coptic Church. Hopefully, we don't get to the point, where one of those things that people of the AOCA don't like about the Coptic Church is the elements of the faith, specific theology of the Coptic Church. This makes it impossible to present an authentic, undiluted Orthodox faith.
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    This post offers no answers to my questions on ecclesiology. Can the Coptic Church create a diocese within a diocese? Is the AOCA a separate entity or not?

    In addition, this excerpt from canadox.ca builds a false dichotomy. In his mind, it is either Arabic/English chaplaincies or "parishes that mean to be the Church here". Obviously, no one in their right mind would want a chaplaincy over the Church. But he framed the "options" as (1) Keep the Arabic/English church of the Coptic Church in that path it has always been - which is bad, (2) or find a way to make the Church whatever #1 is not. 
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    Sorry @cyril and @Remnkemi...HGBY has removed all traces of the announcement and and the slideshow that was copied here. I have become evil, just for the last couple of mints, and deleted all contents from either in this post. 
  • EsmoEpchoisEsmoEpchois
    @minatasgeel for some reason when you say that I imagine HGBY sitting at a computer and personally removing all traces himself lol
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    hehe. No, it was me. I don't speak to his grace directly but I am know many people who do. I don't really think he did it himself...he has many people helping him in these things. 
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    Mina,
    I hope my comments on the AOCA is not taken as an attack on AOCA. God knows how much I love HG Bishop Youssef and the SUS. I merely presented counter arguments for HG and the clergy to consider. It is important that any objections to AOCA are addressed that would result in clearly defining the intent and structure of AOCA so that there is no ambiguity.

    Hopefully, you can relay this to "the many people helping him in these things".
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    Remnkemi...it really wasn't you :-)....the announcement and slideshow were spread everywhere on facebook and it reached egypt and we all know how can that blow up in the wrong way. 


  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    Yes I know Mina. I understand why the announcement and the slideshow was removed. This is not what I'm talking about really. The announcement and slideshow illustrated to me an ambiguous ecclesiology. The underlying reason for AOCA is good but the devil is in the details. I hope that any challenge to AOCA, like what I wrote in my comments and questions, is seen in the interest of working out the kinks, not attacking the concept of AOCA. 
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    I would appreciated if we not talk about the AOCA until the topic rises back to the service and HGBY explains more.  
  • cyril
    Crumbs of Bread

    http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/parables/crumbs_of_bread


    A few days ago we shared a simple supper with Fr Zacharias from the monastery of St John the Baptist in Essex and we welcomed him at the Lived Theology School house which is next to the mission. It was a simple moment filled with fraternal spirit. Father Zacharias commented on the fact that we should never waste food recalling how Jesus commanded his disciples to gather the crumbs from the miracle of the loaves. In John 6 verse 12 we hear “Gather the crumbs so that nothing would be lost”.

    As I later reflected on our conversation, and the gospel that Father Zacharias was referring to, I was lead to a new understanding of the life and work of St John the Compassionate Mission. For over fifteen years now we have been breaking bread under the large fresco that dominates the Mission refectory. I often have commented how this 20 foot long icon of the multiplication of the loaves is a daily reminder of this miracle in the life of the Mission. The miracle of how every day, now for over 30 years, a poor-of-means community has never turned a single person away because there was no food.

    That evening Fr Zacharias' words opened another door into this miracle for me. This miracle of Christ continues among us because we gather each day the crumbs, so that none may get lost. We gather these crumbs with humility and gratitude. The infinite and abundant providential care of the Lord towards us is manifested in our willingness to gather up the crumbs. It is in the humble crumb of bread that this miracle is made permanently present in the Church.

    Therefore I understood, I need to pay attention to the crumbs. The attention I may give to someone who is suffering may only seem like a crumb; the programs we may offer are only crumbs in the face of the multitude of needs of the people - yet these are the crumbs the Lord asked his apostles to gather so that no-one may be lost.

    We all suffer, even in the Church, from this passion of wanting to be effective. We don’t dare start something unless we have all the means to succeed in the eyes of the world. So many of our social programs promise life- changing experiences. We don’t want to appear poor, simple, and insignificant. We compete on YouTube, and many other ways, so as to appear useful and important. Why waste time with Helen when I could change the world? Why struggle with the bakery when I could be giving conferences on helping the poor throughout North America? Why help a few people find work when we could change the lives of thousands? Yet the Lord is in the crumbs. He is found speaking to a bent over old woman; he sits besides Lazarus at the gate; his Kingdom is in the mustard seed, in a pinch of salt, a speck of yeast.

    I discovered that evening, and in talking to a brother later the next day, that this miracle is a call to learn to do small things well. To follow a path that closely follows the way of Christ the way of poverty, vulnerability and humility. Only in this way we can be tender with one another because, as St. Theophan the Recluse reminds us, "we are always only poor and naked". We will never achieve the heights of the great saints of the church, but maybe our way is through humility and gentleness. It is ok to be just a crumb in the hands of the Lord and his apostles.

    We have tried very hard to make the Mission known to the church and what I learned that evening is that we just ended up competing with other more impressive charities. When instead we simply gather the crumbs, this frees us to simply live and be what we are in the hands of our Lord. He calls us to look for what is humble rather than what appears important; to minister from below, rather than from the top down; to pay attention to the widow's mite and the beggar who is blind. To delight in Janice and Stephen and Elizabeth - all the people who seem to get in the way of more important work.

    Once an old nun, commenting on the Consecrated Bread, reminded me that, “He is also in the crumbs”. Yes, He is in the crumbs and our life at the mission and it is a call to gather the crumbs of the Lord. With these the Lord will continue to feed us and all His people.

    Yes, He is also in the crumbs!

  • cyril
    For French speakers there's this interview:

    Itinérance : Le dévouement du Père Roberto


    http://ici.radio-canada.ca/emissions/ya_pas_deux_matins_pareils/2014-2015/chronique.asp?idChronique=371827

    À la mission St. John située aux coins des Queen et Broadview, les sans-abri se font servir des repas et du pain frais dans de délicates assiettes en porcelaine. Un concept loin des traditionnelles soupes populaires. Le Père Roberto Ubertino est derrière de cette idée ingénieuse. Il a également fondé une boulangerie, une friperie, et le refuge Ste Marie l'Égyptienne. Il songe à bien plus encore. De passage en studio, le père Roberto a partagé quelques réflexions au sujet de la perception de la pauvreté. 
  • cyril
    St. Peter & St. Paul Coptic Orthodox Church in Montreal
    Photos of Church opening on May 9 & 10
    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1020737951277156.1073741839.148418458509114&type=1


  • qawe
    edited June 2015
    cyril said:

    St. Peter & St. Paul Coptic Orthodox Church in Montreal
    Photos of Church opening on May 9 & 10
    https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.1020737951277156.1073741839.148418458509114&type=1


    I do not believe this model of mission is Orthodox (i.e. Christian).  [ edited by admin ... we need to stop talking about people here ]
  • davidschanterdavidschanter
    edited June 2015
    Guys we as the Coptic Church have been oppressed for a long time. We haven't been able to evangelize like we did in the first few centuries. From the 7th century until now, evangelism was almost non existent with us because of persecution. Unfortunately, we still have this seclusion mentality for the most part as a culture. We forgot what a catechumen is, how to take them through the appropriate process, and how to ultimately bring them to salvation the way the apostles had originally intended.
    Do not be unfairly critical of these churches that have a higher focus on evangelism. They are doing something fairly new for us, or you can say they are reviving something we haven't had in 1400 years. Nothing in its infancy is perfect of course, but you must pray for the success of all new projects in the Lord as He sees fit.
    Until you find the way you believe the apostles did it, implement this procedure, and show success, you are effectively looking at the speck in your brother's eye and avoiding the plank in your own! We are supposed to evangelize. It is literally our dogma and not just some mere option we can bypass. 
    Remember David and when he danced half naked around the ark of the covenant praising God (2 Samuel 6)? His wife yelled at him for looking like a fool and accused him of arousing the servant girls. David was praising God with all his might physically and spiritually. If we saw him praising God in this way today we most likely would fall into the same sin and ridicule his praise. But be careful because no fruit came of David's wife until the day of her death. In other words, you are establishing yourself as the vine that does not bear fruit when you accuse, accuse, and accuse, but do nothing yourself to bear fruit. 

    Forgive me and pray for me
  • qawe
    edited June 2015
    davidschanter said:

    Guys we as the Coptic Church have been oppressed for a long time. We haven't been able to evangelize like we did in the first few centuries. From the 7th century until now, evangelism was almost non existent with us because of persecution. Unfortunately, we still have this seclusion mentality for the most part as a culture. We forgot what a catechumen is, how to take them through the appropriate process, and how to ultimately bring them to salvation the way the apostles had originally intended.

    I agree.
    davidschanter said:

    Do not be unfairly critical of these churches that have a higher focus on evangelism.

    I have not been critical of any of the American Coptic churches in the LA or SUS diocese.  They genuinely have a higher focus on evangelism.  The "mission churches" are just using 'outreach' as an excuse to cater to the 99% Egyptian congregation's liberal sensibilities.

    Tell me - if you really cared about evangelism, why would you establish a schizophrenic parish with a dual personality - sometimes worshipping liturgically, other times 'rocking out for Jesus'?  Leaving aside the question of which one (or both) is right, the people you are trying to attract usually prefer one form of worship or the other - no-one wants to join a parish with an identity problem.

    Anba Youssef put it best: "The "protestantization" of the Orthodox church will produce neither a successful Orthodox Church, nor a familiar Protestant church.  It will instead be a lukewarm church that fails to make the life-giving Tradition of the Orthodox Church accessible to Americans, while at the same time not attracting Protestant Christians due to its many foreign liturgical elements and beliefs."

    davidschanter said:

    They are doing something fairly new for us, or you can say they are reviving something we haven't had in 1400 years.
    Again, I invite you to look at the parishes in the LA and SUS dioceses.  Setting up an Orthodox parish catered to American people is not rocket science.  Or look at the Antiochian Orthodox and the OCA.  They are part of the One Holy Catholic Apostolic Church too (i.e. we all belong to the same Church). So there is nothing 'new' for 'us' here.


    davidschanter said:

    Nothing in its infancy is perfect of course
    When the leadership of a major 'movement' within the Church has literally heretical elements, this is more than a minor 'imperfection'.  And Anba Youssef agrees that this is serious: http://returntoorthodoxy.com/bishop-youssef-true-christian-unity/


    davidschanter said:

    but you must pray for the success of all new projects in the Lord as He sees fit.
    I agree, but 'success' would involve a radical revision of what has been done so far, and the recantation of heresy.

    davidschanter said:

    Until you find the way you believe the apostles did it, implement this procedure,

    As I said above, it's not rocket science.  I refer you again to the LA and SUS dioceses, the Antiochian Archdiocese and the Orthodox Church in America.  It is being implemented in the Coptic church as we speak, and has been the case in the Eastern Orthodox Churches for decades.

    davidschanter said:

    and show success,
    If you mean success in terms of numbers and media influence, we will probably never match the Coptic-Evangelical megachurch imitators.  But Christian success is not measured in terms of numbers.  It is measured in terms of faithfulness to Christ's commands.


    davidschanter said:

    you are effectively looking at the speck in your brother's eye and avoiding the plank in your own!
    The problem is much worse than a mere 'speck', as I mentioned above.  In terms of the 'plank' apparently in our eyes, I don't see how much influence the average layman could have on the establishment of new parishes.  If you want to accuse anyone, accuse the bishops and HH.  I for one will not hasten to do that.

    davidschanter said:

    Remember David and when he danced half naked around the ark of the covenant praising God (2 Samuel 6)? His wife yelled at him for looking like a fool and accused him of arousing the servant girls. David was praising God with all his might physically and spiritually. If we saw him praising God in this way today we most likely would fall into the same sin and ridicule his praise. But be careful because no fruit came of David's wife until the day of her death. In other words, you are establishing yourself as the vine that does not bear fruit when you accuse, accuse, and accuse

    Visit the website http://www.returntoorthodoxy.com/

    Your views are contradicted by the Holy Synod, Pope Shenouda, Anba Serapion, Anba Youssef, Abouna Tadros Yacoub Malaty and many more.  These great luminaries are not 'vines that do not bear fruit [who] accuse, accuse, and accuse'.


    davidschanter said:

    but do nothing yourself to bear fruit. 
    Do you know me personally?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    I am locking this post...I think we have exhausted all objective opinions. We just keep showing our hate and intolerance to others' doings and end up judging/condemning them rather than their actions. We dare to do so here because we are hiding behind usernames and computer monitors. Whatever is to be posted here ought to be for the benefit of ALL (not just a place for the poster to spread their opinions) ... so we need to be mindful of what we are saying and how we are saying it. 

    One more thing, each person has a certain respect depending on their credentials and rank in the Church. If anyone has problems with anyone else, they should go to the proper authority and report them (and their improper actions) and then that authority is responsible to act or to ignore...they sin is then theirs in case nothing has been done. 
This discussion has been closed.