Skip to the content
Icon of Christ
› ›

Origin of Humans

2»

Comments

  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    minasoliman said:

    The phrase "in incorruption" is very important.  That means God created us in His own grace.  We are not incorruptible by nature.  Only the divine nature is incorruptible.  Therefore, we who are "essentially corruptible" were created "in incorruption" or "in His divine grace".
    Mina, I understood St Athanasius' comments that Amoussa1 gave us to state God created man incorruptible and corruption occurred when man was exiled out of the garden. You are stating man was created corruptible but he was given a certain grace to be incorruptible but then lost it and became corruptible. Here is the real conflict. Are we created incorruptible and then lost the grace, or were we created corruptible but given grace to be incorruptible and then lost it? You seem to say if man was created incorruptible then he would have a divine nature. I don't think this is accurate. Yes God's divine nature is incorruptible in itself, but God gives man's nature incorruptibility and immortality. So being created incorruptible does not equal being created divine.  

    What do the fathers say? Seems like St Basil says we were created incorruptible. 

    PS. There are other problems I have with evolution. I hope we can iron these out too.
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    edited December 2014
    St. Athanasius writes we are by nature "impermanent".  St. Severus also fought against the heresy of Julianism which denied the natural corruptibility of Christ's human nature.  There are two definitions of corruption:

    1.  Sinful
    2.  Liable to non-existence or dissolution (or death)

    The last one St. Athanasius was very clear that is what we are by nature.

    We are not created incorruptible, but in incorruption.  There is a nuance, at least under the arguments of St. Severus, there is.  To be incorruptible and to be in incorruption have two meanings, the former meaning what you are by nature, and the latter is what you are by grace.
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    Also just to be clear, I never nor will I attempt to tell you what happened when God created us. Did He take a bunch of people who were alive and then gave them incorruption? I never said that. I simply said you cannot deny the science of evolution since it is now more or less a fact. At the same time God created us in incorruption, and I believe that. How the two goes together, I never explained, but what I do explain is that being that our flesh has a component similar to the rest of the animal world (nay even the rest of all the universe), then it is not far-fetched to believe we have received that part of our humanity from an ape ancestry. Our spiritual side I have not explained away or have explained how we have it to begin with.

    I am very careful with what i write, so i wish no one introduces something I never said in what I wrote. Not everything can be explained and I do not mind leaving this in the realm of mystery.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    edited December 2014
    Hi Mina,

    My sincere unreserved apologies if you think I was being rude or for my sarcastic overtones in my posts. Not at all. Please don't be upset with me, Mina. My problem was that I've been trying my hardest to refute the theory of evolution, only to have a well respected Coptic Blogger like yourself agree on it. And then not only agree on it, but even refute scientists who happen to disagree on it too.

    Of course when I said "enta erd yabni" it was a pun/joke, and not to be taken as an insult, but I guess its not an insult at all. We are all monkeys. Where is this going my friend??? 

    When I said "Enta Erd Yabni" obviously at that point in my head when I typed it, I was talking even about us all. NO PUN intended. That's what we are saying here - isn't it? We are all from monkeys. My friends used to tell me when I was a kid "[ censored by admin ] hamra" - This will never be a joke anymore. 

    Can we have a discussion on Paltalk over this?? Would you guys mind if we spoke?? Its very important. I can create a room and we can all meet up and discuss everything there.

    From the responses that I've seen, I'm not the only one here who is lost.

    You obviously have your faith figured out, which is great, but it seems death is natural - its how God intended it to be. 

    What I fail to understand is that how can we inherit a corrupted nature. If Adam sinned, then it should only have been on Adam's head that He lost the Grace and Unity of the Holy Spirit. Not on Adam's descendants. 

    Maybe there isn't any Adam , and all this is just a myth? 

    How can we even say that Adam is the 1st man when what defines a man is not even clear. Are we today "men" or will our race evolve to be "super men" in another 10 billion years from now? 

    None of this makes sense, and I prefer to have an oral discussion ; that's if you all agree?



  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    Mina, Remi,

    I was reading St Athanasious' Incarnation of the Word.

    It was I, at the very least, who pointed out that St Athanasios was saying that we are impermanent. Hence physical death is inevitable and part of the engineering of our nature; whether Adam sinned by eating from the tree or not, he was always going to die anyway. 

    You agree? That's the 1st point.

    2nd point: if sin only made Adam lose the graces of the Holy Spirit, then this was Spiritual corruption. How can we, as humans, inherit the spiritual corruption of someone else? So I've sinned, how can my kids end up with my sinful spiritual state? Its impossible. They are born perfectly sinless. All kids are innocent. 

    Hence, this seems to be a circular problem.

    Why am I listening to Mina on this? Well, I've read Mina's other posts on other Orthodox websites etc, and he's quite learned, and useful; but it turns out that ages ago (5 years or so), I was discussing the same issue with a friend of mine. You all know him by the way. lol 

    Anyway, this guy was saying, without even getting into evolution, that God created us physically to die. It was a mercy from God that we die.

    I couldn't believe this. So i went to my priest and asked him. He disagreed. He said: No - they died only after sinning.

    Why is the opinion of this man so important to me ? Because he promotes Abouna Matta El Maskeen's works. lol
    Not that I've read them, but it seems there are 2 strands of theologies in our Church: mine , and his.

    My understanding of theology/soteriology comes from going to Church and listening to Abouna. Being a good Sunday School kid etc. You can call me lazy for not reading much about Abouna Matta El Maskeen, but why should I? The Bible was complicated enough for me at the time.

    The point I'm trying to make is this: The theory of evolution seems to bode well with my friend's understanding of salvation - us dying (physically) was already a given variable. It wasn't induced by sin or introduced by sin. 

    I feel I deserve some credit for being the one the point out that St Athanasios tells us that God created us impermanent; which supports the argument that we were made to die physically??

    It seems my priest, as well as my own's understanding of soteriology was incorrect. 

    But as I said, I'm the only one here admitting this, and seeking resolution. Everyone else is acting as if they already knew these things - or are too scared to show their ignorance.

    What does Abouna Matta El Maskeen or theologians Bebawy say on this matter?? I'm sure it must all be along the same lines as my friend who is an open defender of their interpretations.

  • qawe
    edited December 2014
    @Zoxasi

    You are gravely mistaken.

    Physical death is a result of Adam/Eve's sin. Before this, humans were immortal, NOT BY NATURE BUT BY VIRTUE OF COMMUNION WITH THE IMMORTAL GOD. In that sense, humans are impermanent as at some point they came into being, and therefore they can in the same way lapse out of existence. We are corruptIBLE not incorruptible. But that does not negate the fact that we were created for physical and spiritual immortality, and had Adam and Eve never sinned, they would have continued on this path of communion with God and never died (physically).

    Re the 2nd point, your kids don't inherit your sin or Adam's sin, rather they inherit Adam's DEATH. Just as you yourself inherited Adam's death when you were conceived. Adam represents all of humanity, and thus when he fell away from God, all of humanity did too. Adam sinned, Adam became subject to death, all of humanity became subject to death. The previous sentence holds true even if no-one ever sinned again after Adam. Our problem is DEATH, not sin per se. All kids are innocent of sin, but this does not make them immune from the disease of death, since this disease was a result of Adam's sin.

    I'm fairly sure Abouna Matta and Bebawi agree on all this.
  • EsmoEpchoisEsmoEpchois
    So why do we still die a physical death now after Christ came and saved us? Also say for instance like Adam is walking in the Garden and a huge tree large enough to kill him falls on him. Would he not die because he is immortal? I feel like I'm misunderstanding the physical immortality part.
  • Faithfull Servant 1
    Hi,
    Mina said 'evolution is a fact, more or less". I will be back soon with a written response to that statement!
    God bless
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    edited December 2014
    Qawe,

    Your understanding is the same as mine. What you are discussing is typical Christian Theology. Why are we even talking about that for? I came to discuss evolution, and we have a few people here who are telling us that evolution is a fact. 

    Now Mina tells me that evolution is true, it means things have changed a bit:

    a) God created Man who evolved from lower species.
    b) Being part of the natural law, they died.
    c) Somewhere along the line, God breathed into this glorified ape His Holy Spirit
    d) This gave him eternal life (spiritual only) because he was already destined to die physically by virtue of his animal nature.

    Why do we all suffer the penalty/consequences of Adam's sin if his sin resulted in him losing Spiritual Eternal life with God? It should only be Adam who suffered.

    Look, none of this makes sense. 

    Let's discuss this on Paltalk. What time is good for you??  

    What i find hard to believe is that there are even Pro Intelligent Design scientists (Turek for example) - who not only agree with evolution, but believe that God is the 1st uncaused 1st cause that started the Big Bang. 

    But what they fail to realise is how this changes our beliefs. If we weren't created, but evolved; it means that we were already destined to die. Adam's sin was only spiritual in its consequence. When God said to Adam: "From now on, you'll toil the entire earth, and work hard" - that was a throw-away statement - he was probably working hard anyway. 

    Look, can someone just tell me what we believe in? Im tired. 

    I'll accept anything except Mohammad was a prophet and rupture theory. Just tell me how I can reconcile evolution with being an Orthodox Christian.
  • qawe
    edited December 2014
    @Zoxasi

    Sorry I'm not free to discuss this on Paltalk. Hopefully others are.

    In terms of reconciling evolution with Orthodoxy, it's not a field I'm very well-versed in anyway.

    "Why do we all suffer the penalty/consequences of Adam's sin if his sin resulted in him losing Spiritual Eternal life with God? It should only be Adam who suffered."
    Why? It might not seem just to you in our modern Western individualistic context, but it is a reality that you can be affected by things that are not your own fault.
  • qawe
    EsmoEpchois said:

    So why do we still die a physical death now after Christ came and saved us?

    I wrote a response to this but it seems to have been lost.

    Christ conquered death BY DEATH. Thus the solution to death involves going through death, just as Christ did. Ie we have to die in Christ to rise in Christ (please read Romans 6:5)
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    EsmoEpchois said:

    So why do we still die a physical death now after Christ came and saved us? Also say for instance like Adam is walking in the Garden and a huge tree large enough to kill him falls on him. Would he not die because he is immortal? I feel like I'm misunderstanding the physical immortality part.

    Esmoepchoise: I wrote a response , but it got erased.

    If God exists, then He created adam in incorruption. It means that before Adam sinned, God was in control of everything. He controlled Adam's Air conditioning unit. Nothing would have happened to Adam as God was with Him, taking care of him.

    When he sinned, God's Grace left Adam, leaving Adam to survive by himself.

  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    Can you look at this:



  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    Has anyone here heard of the Genographic Project? These scientists traced all of humanity to TWO people in the middle of Africa, thousands of years ago.

    These are scientific facts. They can trace your ancestry to a country, and then even further back to 2 people. Everyone is related to the same 2 persons in Africa.

    Suppose that the origin of species by evolution were true: then it would contradict clearly the Genographic study: If Ape family species evolved into human species, we'd have been able to trace our genetic roots to several species millions of years ago. 

    Can someone highlight these facts? 

    Look, its impossible to reconcile evolution with our Orthodox Belief. Its impossible. Both ideas are contradictory to each other. Either we figure out how to answer this bull that we originated from apes, or we just let our children grow up without any faith whatsoever.


  • minasolimanminasoliman
    edited December 2014
    Hi Zoxsasi,

    I live in New Jersey. I don't have paltalk, but it would be a pleasure if anyone of us like to get together and discuss this over lunch or dinner.

    If you like, I'm giving a presentation to Holmdel graduate youth tonight, so maybe if you like, you can come there too.

    I agree with qawe's last couple of posts. This is what I hold to and I compliment it with my scientific background.

    God bless.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    Mina,

    How can you agree with Qawe's post?? How can you agree to that and reconcile that with the "fact" that we evolved from Apes?? 

    It means that we didn't die physically, we died only spiritually - according to your logic. 

    I came here to discuss & disprove evolutionary theories; not to reconcile them with my faith. 

    Qawe's posts describe typical orthodox belief without evolution. Can you explain how you reconcile your belief with evolution and your faith??

    Also, why are you so convinced that evolution of humans is true given that there are many arguments against it?
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    edited December 2014
    erased
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    Mina/Coptic Deacon: how can you answer this?

  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    Man that was such a useless video. Sorry... I'll find something else where a microbiologist becomes Christian and speaks sense. This man is waffling too much
  • TITLTITL
    @minasoliman

    What (Orthodox) reading sources do you recommend on evolution? I'm pretty mind-blown right now. 
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    @minasoliman, 

    I have another question - Please please answer this.

    OK - so you believe we evolved from a single cell. The cell mutated, and mutated, and through the process of mutation & natural selection, over millions of years, become a reptile. 

    Reptiles became the precursor for mammals. 

    Mammals, diversified into other species, of which Apes was a family. 

    Humans have a common ancestor of the ape family. 

    (that was from Science Ed Channel on YouTube).

    My question is this:

    Who decided - how did organisms decide to create Male/Female members of each specie? Snails can give birth, or reproduce without a mate. How is it that a specie, billions of years ago - could have had the intelligence to think for itself to create a male and female version of a kind so that they could reproduce. 

    It is through reproduction, evolution, natural selection that a specie can evolve and perhaps (over time) evolve into a new specie - right? So how on earth could the 1st cell that we all came from have decided to create male/female versions of each specie? Why not create a reproductive system like a snail, where animals just give birth without a mate? 

    Ravi Zacharias actually had a good lecture on the Trinity saying that basically the Nature of God , being Triune, invites for intimacy; He created humans to be have this need for intimacy already; and that's a reflection of His Nature - that with the multi-dimensional nature of God, He naturally creates according to His nature. (if that makes sense?) 

    Im really interested in your answer 
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    I've been very busy lately, trying to catch up on applications...but here's an earlier thread on the subject:


    Sadly, ousia posts are missing, which had a lot of sophisticated material that would be good to advance some discussion, but overall, it hadn't had me convinced either.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    Mina, 

    All I want to know is this:

    a) How did God Create us?
    b) Did He create us from dust? or did we evolve from apes, and hence we are simply glorified apes?
    c) Why did Christ die for? If supposedly we were not created by God, yet we evolved, it means we were created to die already. So we already had a nature that was susceptible to death.

    Are you saying that God breathed life into the 1st species that were evolved from Apes? Would that be correct?

    Thanks
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    edited December 2014
    a.) yes
    b.) are not apes also from dust?  Why are we not both?  What difference does it make whether we are glorified dust like other animals or glorified apes?
    c.) Christ died for our salvation.  As a result of man's transgression, we chose to separate ourselves from God, but God became man so that man might become gods, to unite to Him once more, in a more dignified fashion.  "Created nature" is a nature susceptible to "non-existence" as St. Athanasius would teach, and any creature that is alive is susceptible to death.  By grace, God granted our ancestors immortality, which they forfeited by their disobedience.

    The intricacies of when and how, I do not claim to have an answer to, and I don't think, for those of us who mature into the faith, really need to.  I accept by faith that at some point, God granted humanity a chance, and humanity blew it.  Then God granted humanity the Law, but the Law only confirmed man in their sin.  It was a temporary bandage until Christ came to renew us in His image and establish His grace in an indestructible fashion.  He took upon Himself death, and turned death into a form of salvation and grace.  What we are by nature transforms us into what we shall become by grace, sown in corruption, raised in incorruption.
  • cyril
    +1
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    Sorry I thought I read the first question "did God create us?" Which I answered "yes" to. "How"? We have genetic evidence as well as fossil evidence we evolved in some way. How and when the two stories, the science and the Biblical stories, mesh together, I don't know, and I don't think I feel there's a pressing need to know either, for one is a spiritual story of our creation and fall while the other is a physical evidence that God left for us so that we can advance in ways that can help our society in technology and health.
Sign In or Register to comment.