The Hymn "Amen Alleluia"

edited December 1969 in Hymns Discussion
In the Hymn "Amen Alleluia," we say "And it gives satisfaction To utter two thousands." Why two thousands?
The chanter that was chanting it last Saturday in my church changed the words to (that part was sung in Arabic) "wakaelaha yakfey ykol be mela feh" "وقائلها يكفيه يقول بملء فيه" When I asked him why did you change it, he said why should we say two thousands only?

Comments

  • lol....that show you how ppl do even bother studying searching about hymns. The text is:
    ألليلويا تنزيه،وقائلها يكفيه،يقول ألفين بفيه،آمين ألليلويا.

    Yakool "A-li-feen be-feh" means: to say two 'alefs', the arabic letter. So it is not enough for him to say 2 letters of the bork Alleluia.......so it doesn't refer to quantity of how many times you'll say it the word but rather how much of it.
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=14006.msg161877#msg161877 date=1355195422]
    lol....that show you how ppl do even bother studying searching about hymns. The text is:
    ألليلويا تنزيه،وقائلها يكفيه،يقول ألفين بفيه،آمين ألليلويا.

    Yakool "A-li-feen be-feh" means: to say two 'alefs', the arabic letter. So it is not enough for him to say 2 letters of the bork Alleluia.......so it doesn't refer to quantity of how many times you'll say it the word but rather how much of it.


    But in the English translation it is translated as two thousands...
  • [quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=14006.msg161879#msg161879 date=1355195920]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=14006.msg161877#msg161877 date=1355195422]
    lol....that show you how ppl do even bother studying searching about hymns. The text is:
    ألليلويا تنزيه،وقائلها يكفيه،يقول ألفين بفيه،آمين ألليلويا.

    Yakool "A-li-feen be-feh" means: to say two 'alefs', the arabic letter. So it is not enough for him to say 2 letters of the bork Alleluia.......so it doesn't refer to quantity of how many times you'll say it the word but rather how much of it.


    But in the English translation it is translated as two thousands...

    exactly like MUCH of the translations out there....
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=14006.msg161880#msg161880 date=1355197405]
    [quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=14006.msg161879#msg161879 date=1355195920]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=14006.msg161877#msg161877 date=1355195422]
    lol....that show you how ppl do even bother studying searching about hymns. The text is:
    ألليلويا تنزيه،وقائلها يكفيه،يقول ألفين بفيه،آمين ألليلويا.

    Yakool "A-li-feen be-feh" means: to say two 'alefs', the arabic letter. So it is not enough for him to say 2 letters of the bork Alleluia.......so it doesn't refer to quantity of how many times you'll say it the word but rather how much of it.


    But in the English translation it is translated as two thousands...

    exactly like MUCH of the translations out there....


    lol so how would you translate that?
  • [quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=14006.msg161881#msg161881 date=1355197640]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=14006.msg161880#msg161880 date=1355197405]
    [quote author=Copticandproud link=topic=14006.msg161879#msg161879 date=1355195920]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=14006.msg161877#msg161877 date=1355195422]
    lol....that show you how ppl do even bother studying searching about hymns. The text is:
    ألليلويا تنزيه،وقائلها يكفيه،يقول ألفين بفيه،آمين ألليلويا.

    Yakool "A-li-feen be-feh" means: to say two 'alefs', the arabic letter. So it is not enough for him to say 2 letters of the bork Alleluia.......so it doesn't refer to quantity of how many times you'll say it the word but rather how much of it.


    But in the English translation it is translated as two thousands...

    exactly like MUCH of the translations out there....


    lol so how would you translate that?

    i donno.
  • Still makes sense to translate this into two A's.. Thanks mina I didn't know that before
    Oujai
  • Mina and Fady and anyone else, please help me with this Arabic.

    1. Google translates تنزيه as "transcendence". Is this accurate?
    2. Doesn't قائلها يكفيه mean "The [person] who says it is satisfied"?
    3. Is the phrase قائلها يكفيه meant to be in the interrogative? In other words "Whoever says it, it is enough?"
    4. Doesn't يقول ألفين بفيه mean "He will say the two alefs"?

    I don't see where there is a negative ("it is not enough for him to say 2 letters of the book"). Or is it meant to be a rhetorical question?

    I see two translations:
    1. Alleluia is transcendence. He who says it is satisfied. He will say the two alef letters.
    OR
    2. Alleluia is transcendence. Whoever says it, is not satisfied with the two alef letters.

    If it is rhetorical, then I would translate it as
    3. Alleluia is transcendence. Who says it and is not satisfied? Who will not say the two alef letters?

    What are your thoughts? Which translation above is closest in your opinion?
  • [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=14006.msg161930#msg161930 date=1355321515]
    Mina and Fady and anyone else, please help me with this Arabic.

    1. Google translates تنزيه as "transcendence". Is this accurate?
    2. Doesn't قائلها يكفيه mean "The [person] who says it is satisfied"?
    3. Is the phrase قائلها يكفيه meant to be in the interrogative? In other words "Who says it is, is it enough?"
    4. Doesn't يقول ألفين بفيه mean "He will say the two alefs"?

    I don't see where there is a negative ("it is not enough for him to say 2 letters of the book"). Or is it meant to be a rhetorical question?

    I see two translations:
    1. Alleluia is transcendence. He who says it is satisfied. He will say the two alef letters.
    OR
    2. Alleluia is transcendence. Whoever says it, is not satisfied with the two alef letters.

    If it is rhetorical, then I would translate it as
    3. Alleluia is transcendence. Who says it and is not satisfied? Who will not say the two alef letters?

    What are your thoughts? Which translation above is closest in your opinion?


    After Mina said that "ألفين" is refering to two "ألف" not two thousands, I thought the meaning would be that Alleluia is full of pleausre, and it is enough for the reader to say two ''ألف'' i.e one Alleluia.
  • BTW, this version of the arabic was changed in the Sourian Monastery book but it is found in fr Samuel Thabet book.

    George, there is no 'negative' in the text....it simply said it is enough for him to only say two Alefs to get the sense of getting the whole word.
  • Ok. I looked online and I found that ألفية means millenary, millenium, millennium. Isn't  بفيه come from the same root word as ألفية (but with different grammatical tenses)? If it is, then the sentence is even more ambiguous. What do you think?
  • [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=14006.msg161936#msg161936 date=1355335358]
    Ok. I looked online and I found that ألفية means millenary, millenium, millennium. Isn't  بفيه come from the same root word as ألفية (but with different grammatical tenses)? If it is, then the sentence is even more ambiguous. What do you think?


    As far as I know بفيه comes from the same root word as فوهة which means an opening refering to the mouth.
  • فيه or فاه refers to mouth.
    ألفين DOES mean two thousands but it makes no sense alone. ya3ny you'd have to say Alfeen Marra, or alfeen --- something.
    the plural of Alef is Alfen....which makes sense.

    NOW, i know where the two thousands came from....a blue book of kiahk madayeh that is published St. George's  of Hammamat elQoba, it changed that text to يقول ألاف بفيه. so whoever revised the book didn't understand that either.
  • I'm not questioning ألفين . I know it has two meanings: two alef letters and two thousand. I'm questioning ألفية
    Is the online dictionary wrong? Does ألفية mean "mouth" and not "thousand"? Is it possible that ألفية has two meanings, both mouth and thousand?

    If ألفية does mean thousand, then  يقول ألفين بفيه could mean the "to say two thousand by thousand" or "to say two million" (This is how you would say two million in Coptic too). This would give us a translation of "Alleluia is transcendence. Whoever says it is not satisfied with two million"

    Does this seem right?
  • القية is just 'the anniversary of a thousand' like 'the passing of a thousand ---' and nothing else
    i forgot to mention that فيه is n ot really proper arabic. you won't find a translation for it because the proper word is فاه. but el-nazem of the madeha changed it (like almost all the other kiahk madayeh) to fit the rhyme. so Tanzeeh....Feeh
  • Ok. The light bulb went on in my head and now I understand where I'm getting confused.

    Would you say the closest "appropriate" English translation should be "Alleluia is transcendence. Whoever says it is satisfied to say only two letters with his mouth"? Of course, in English the phrase "to say ... with mouth" is redundant and unnecessary. There is really no other way to say anything without your mouth. I'd take out "with his mouth".

    My last question. How does two alefs signify Alleluia? Is it because the first and lest letter in the word are alefs? Shouldn't the abbreviation of Alleluia be "AL" not "AA"? I'm just curious.

  • [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=14006.msg161944#msg161944 date=1355340833]
    Ok. The light bulb went on in my head and now I understand where I'm getting confused.

    Would you say the closest "appropriate" English translation should be "Alleluia is transcendence. Whoever says it is satisfied to say only two letters with his mouth"? Of course, in English the phrase "to say ... with mouth" is redundant and unnecessary. There is really no other way to say anything without your mouth. I'd take out "with his mouth".
    that would be good.

    My last question. How does two alefs signify Alleluia? Is it because the first and lest letter in the word are alefs? Shouldn't the abbreviation of Alleluia be "AL" not "AA"? I'm just curious.

    well maybe that's why the Sourian monastery book changed it.
  • Two alephs are for Amen Alleluja. It happens that the two Arabic words and the two English ones start with one respective letter.
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=14006.msg161957#msg161957 date=1355347455]
    Two alephs are for Amen Alleluja. It happens that the two Arabic words and the two English ones start with one respective letter.
    Oujai qen `P[C



    That's what I thought.  It makes sense since it is Amen Alleluia, as opposed to simply Alleluia, which is the theme throughout the song, and another cryptic reference also points to 'Amen Alleluia' (The fraction from the Korban, Hippe Evshe Neman - Rem, you explained this last year).
  • I think the most accurate English translation would be "Alleluia is transcendence. Whoever says it is satisfied to say the two alphas with his mouth, Amen Alleluia"?  Of course, it would need a foot note explaining what the two alphas are as kindly provided by ophadece.
  • What does hippe evshe neman mean?
  • this is a nice one, few people know this, but it is a reference to this fraction: http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/2506 which has the response Amen Alleluia multiple times. 
  • edited December 2014
    Thanks! Two more questions lol. Peniot ava antonios in English is our father anthony? And your mercies o my God for kiahk can be said on any day?
  • Peniot abba Anthony = our father *Abba* Anthony

    Re your mercies O my God, I have seen 2 different teachings. According to CopticReader, it is said any day. According to http://www.suscopts.org/deacons/hymns/kiahk_rites.pdf it is only on Sunday.
  • @minafayik and @minatasgeel,
    how is this pronounced evshe then? Or even efshe! Here the shei is in An originally Coptic word so it's pronounced as 'k'.. seriously those Arabic melodies did so much damage to the Coptic orthodox church but not the Arabic one..
    oujai khan ebshois
  • Your mercies O My Lord is an Adam hymn said on the Adam conclusion of theotokiias. Therefore, it goes is said before neknai o panouti on all Adam days.

    @ophadece...no comment
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