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Death

ZoxsasiZoxsasi
edited November 2014 in Faith Issues
Forum members:

Can someone kindly confirm the following:

When sin entered into mankind, through the disobedience of Adam & Eve, they died (physically & spiritually) - or was it just spiritual? 


Comments

  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    God created mankind before He had created man (Adam): Genesis Chap 1:

    26 Then God said, “Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals,[a] and over all the creatures that move along the ground.”

  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi

    So God created mankind in his own image,
        in the image of God he created them;
        male and female he created them.

    28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.


  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi

    Then in Genesis Chap 2: God actually creates Man:

     Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth[a] and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams[b] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed a man[c] from the dustof the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.



  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi

     Now no shrub had yet appeared on the earth[a] and no plant had yet sprung up, for the Lord God had not sent rain on the earth and there was no one to work the ground, 6 but streams[b] came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground. 7 Then the Lord God formed a man[c] from the dustof the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.


  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    edited November 2014

    QUESTIONs:


    a) God created Mankind in His own image, before He had actually created Adam and Eve: What does that mean? 
    b) God then creates Adam & Eve. They were also created in God's image no doubt, but what's the difference between the image they were created in and the other creations? Both were created in God's image. Sure, God breathed in them His Spirit that gave them Life. But let's say that God didn't breath in them - they'd have still been alive (like the other creatures) - please explain this.
    c) Then comes the fall:

    God tells them that if they eat from the Tree, they will surely die. 

    I need to know:

    When they ate, they died. There was separation with God. Did they die physically (i.e. grow old and die) or was it just spiritually??

    Why am I asking this? Because there are servants going around saying many different things concerning this.

    - apologies for multiple pastes, this new forum limits the number of characters on a post.

  • qawe
    edited November 2014
    Before the Fall, they were physically immortal.
    God is the source of life, both physical and spiritual. Thus separation from him has both physical and spiritual consequences.

    Only humans are created in God's image, not animals, which is why a human life is of more value than an animal's.

    Adam is traditionally believed to be the first man. Thus, God did not create mankind before he created Adam. The separate stories of the creation of mankind and the creation of Adam both describe the same event. At least this is the traditional understanding of Genesis.
  • [Deleted User]
    I actually have a question too:

    Why did God even create the "Tree of Knowledge" if he knew that we might one day fall into temptation and then eat from it, damning the original nature he made us in? It just seems like things would have been much more easier if that one tree wasn't made. This is something I absolutely don't understand. Why would God tell Adam, 'You may eat from any fruit from any tree but just one: the tree of knowledge." And God doesn't tell Adam why, and then when the devil comes along, he goes to eve because he knows that she would be easier to convince, then tricks her, and then we eat from the tree. Then that's it. We're offically sentenced to death. Then God had to go through all that trouble of being born, then living, and dying on earth, just so that sentence is removed from our nature. 

    Why? This could have been prevented...why didn't He just prevent this all from happening?
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    What was so bad about the tree anyway? What was so evil about a Tree?

    But ultimately, I'd like to know why He created Mankind in His likeness and Image, and THEN He created Adam. How could that be?
  • mcarmichaelmcarmichael
    @Zoxasi - Don't think of it as you're reading the creation of Mankind twice, and it's already redundant. Think of it as you're reading 2 Chronicles, and 2 Kings provides additional details.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    It says He created Mankind in His image and likeness BEFORE he had actually created Adam.
    What does that mean?
  • mcarmichaelmcarmichael
    I do not attatch any particular significance to that. It's like a preview.
  • mcarmichaelmcarmichael
    We have another testimony in the Letter to the Hebrews, "that God testified on a certain day, calling it today", or something.

    As if He hasn't rested, because didn't the Lord say, "My Father works until this day..."?
  • EsmoEpchoisEsmoEpchois
    Both of my bible translations, iCoptic app and CopticReader, use the word man, not mankind. I dont know if that helps but I definitely would like to know the answers to these questions.
  • coptic_deacon
    on a side note I thought everyone might enjoy the poetry inherent in body: Chemical equilibrium only occurs when you are physically dead.
  • mcarmichaelmcarmichael
    @coptic_deacon 

    It's like the cannabis seed, which remains dormant for months. Anyway holla @lolcatswow, because I've got to go, apparently. I wish it weren't so.

    I'm not a Copt. I'm not even partially Egyptian. I do kick it on twitter though.
  • mabsootamabsoota
    hi dear friends,
    yes there is a summary of creation, and then more details about the creation of the humans.
    some english translations say 'man' for 'mankind' or 'people'. it's all the same.
    especially as it says in chapter one 'male and female he created them', so we can be sure that both men and women are created in the image of God.
    then in chapter 2 it goes into more detail. there was just one man and one woman created at this stage; all the others were their descendants.

    as for the tree, this was created because God values free will.
    free will was His idea to start with anyway. we could not have free will if it was not a gift from God.
    so God gave them just one little rule so that they could follow that rule and choose to be united with him forever.
    if there are no rules at all, you stay with God because you have no choice, not because you want to. 
    you are then no more special than a pet mouse or bird or stick insect that only stays with you because it is in a cage.
    how awful it would be if God kept us in cages! (and it's not great for the small animals either...)

    just imagine your life with one single rule.
    no rules about who you spend time with, what you do, where you go, what time you wake or sleep etc. etc.
    and just one little rule about food.

    it's like image you are fasting and abouna says, ok this fast we are just going to avoid eating carrots.
    everything else goes! (i won't make a list as i'll start to imagine eating all those things on the list!)
    how easy would that be?!
    but, no, adam and eve just get more and more curious about the fruit. 
    they can eat anything they want from the garden, and they don't even have to work hard to make things grow - food is just everywhere. they don't have to dig, or to water the ground.

    the devil takes his chance, and tries to sweet talk them into sinning, basically telling them that black is white.
    so they eat the food and - bang - relationship with God is destroyed in a moment.

    you and i do that too, we have everything we need for spiritual growth in the church, 
    but in one unguarded moment, we let slip a mean word, a lustful glance or a hurtful action.

    'o wretched man that i am! who will deliver me from this body of death? i thank God - through Jesus Christ our Lord!'
    (romans 7:24 and part of 25)

    so God had to come down to our level to bring us back to Him, through the incarnation, suffering, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ who, 'saved our father, Adam, from the seduction, and delivered our mother, Eve, from the pangs of death, and gave us the spirit of sonship.'

    as we pray in the prayer of the morning (1st) hour.
    may He have mercy on us and bring us always closer into beautiful, fun life with Him.

    :D
  • [Deleted User]
    edited December 2014
    That, @mabsoota, was absolutely perfect :)

    It makes total sense now why God decided to do that

    It just seems that because God is all-powerful, all-mighty, all-knowing (omnipotent), that he would have prevented things from the start, but now it's as clear as day that he actually values the relationships we have with him, to the point where he gives us the choice. That just lit like a thousand lightbulbs in my head :D

    Thanks
  • mabsootamabsoota
    thank saint athanasius, who made it all clear in the work 'on the incarnation'
    (and God, whose idea it was!)
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