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orthodox mission
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Mina Soliman wrote:<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />
Proponents of "anti-deification" have two problems and roots of the problems of their theological fight. One is an Islamic concept of divinity. The other is the Western-Protestant concept that agrees with this Islamic concept. This Protestant concept is also a Nestorian concept, also a forerunner of Islam. To deny deification is to be a Nestorian.
Excellent.
This phrase deserves special attention and Mina has to be applauded. Only few people are able to identify that both religions, Protestantism and Islam, have a common source, namely Nestorianism. It is a historical fact.
It also explains the common traits of both religions, which their followers fanatically display in various degrees, like the disrespect to the relics, the churches, the saints and icons. Most importantly, the complete separation from God as a result of denying theosis.
"The American denomination is frequently the “religious” residue of the disappearing ethnic church."
http://www.writeurl.com/publish/xqeeisnjokhcob2zcith
Of course with the discussion about deification and grace I'm not sure how that might impact mission.... Cause if its not about getting people to heaven then everything needs to be understood in light of partaking in the divine life of the Holy Trinity...
The jurisdictional issue is so messy :s we can pray and find ways to at least work together across jurisdictional lines maybe...
Like what if they sing praise songs that are perfectly biblical and quote the psalms? Don't all praise and worship songs essentially talk about our Lord Christ, or the Holy Spirit or the Holy Trinity? They don't say Coptic Orthodox Church is bad or become Protestant. They also don't use any theological words or like say anything about Theotokos being Mother of Christ instead of Mother of God, so they cant be Nestorian.
If these songs are so so bad then where is the proof that they make people protestant or that they teach bad things? They don't say sacraments are bad in those songs. They're just a way that people in North America worship in the culture right?
Maybe the abounas have reviewed these songs and found them compatible with Church teaching, just like the sermons that are borrowed from other sources. Again if the abounas are using them, they are probably safe stuff cause the Abounas have been blessed to understand and teach. All the mission churches also have bible studies so they're encouraging people to know the Church teaching from all angles.
Also our Bishops visit the churches and they seem to have no issues.
Okay, typing in these new forums is frankly a pain, but I've decided that I can't remain silent on this thread. Some things said here simply need to be addressed. This is a very important topic. Orthodox mission is something we must be engaged in. It is a mandate from Our Lord. That said, we must make sure that we are approaching mission from an Orthodox perspective. Incorporating Protestant songs and tracts into the life of our Church is not mission, but rather working against the Church. It is giving the youth poison to drink instead of milk. As I have said, I do not like the new format here, so I won't be posting often, but some issues were raised in this thread that cannot be left unaddressed or left to stand as if they are possibly correct. There can be no incorporation of Evangelical or Charismatic songs or materials into the life of our Church moving forward. An "Evangelical-influenced Coptic Orthodox Church" is oxymoronic. Once a church is Evangelical-influenced, it ceases to be Orthodox.
"The aim of mission can't be anything less than the deification, unification and reconciliation of all churches and the whole world into the unity of the measure and the stature of the fullness of Christ. It is not humanization or socialization but divinization, which is social transformation in the model of Holy Trinity, which may be called Trinification. The aim of mission is not only Theosis but along with it the establishment of the Kingdom of God.”
With all respect to Sayedna, the “unification and reconciliation of all churches” can only mean universal conversion to Orthodoxy. It cannot mean that Protestants remain Protestants and we are somehow still united and reconciled with them despite a lack of real unity in faith and practice. If Sayedna is suggesting that we can somehow achieve "unification" with other Christians without them rejecting and renouncing the errors that separate them from Orthodoxy, than Sayedna is wrong.
As Fr. Georges Florovsky said:
"I believe that the church in which I was baptized and brought up ‘is’ in very truth ‘the Church’, i.e. ‘the true’ Church and the ‘only’ true Church . . . I am therefore compelled to regard all other Christian churches as deficient, and in many cases can identify these deficiencies accurately enough. Therefore, for me, Christian reunion is simply universal conversion to Orthodoxy. I have no confessional loyalty; my loyalty belongs solely to the ‘Una Sancta’."
http://orthodoxyandheterodoxy.org/2013/03/22/should-i-want-everyone-to-become-orthodox/
The Orthodox Church has always made the Faith incarnate in the culture they were serving, but adopting Protestant writings and modes of worship is not doing that. Rather, it is accepting Protestant theology manifested in their worship practices. Do-called “praise & worship” songs are actually nothing more than musical manifestations of Charismatic and Evangelical Protestant theology, contrary and alien to the Orthodox Tradition “once delivered for all the saints” (St. Jude 1:3). These songs are foreign to Orthodoxy not merely in terms of lyrical content, but more importantly, in terms of their approach to worship. They are the musical equivalent of wearing a tube-top and biker shorts to church. They are not an appropriate way to approach God. It is not merely the lyrics (since one might argue, “What about lyrics that come directly from the Bible?”) but the mode of worship itself.
See here: http://returntoorthodoxy.com/orthodox-church-america-orthodox-worship-vs-contemporary-worship/
His Grace Bishop David speaks(/spoke at a retreat) very highly of Fr. Anthony, and I think that's enough confirmation for me that what he's doing is fine.
The problem with Abouna Antony Messeh is that he is backed by some Bishops. While Anba Suriel took the great and diligent work of his office to heart and stood against his use of heterodox sources, Bishop David has been quoted as saying, "Those who have a problem with Abouna Antony are jealous because they cannot do what he does... He always takes my permission and advice."
I have likewise heard this rumor, so I decided to call H.G. Anba David and ask him about it. I was blessed to take an appointment with His Grace and ask him if he endorsed the use of Rick Warren books in our Church, the use of Protestant so-called “praise & worship” hymns, et cetera. His Grace said “No. Of course not.” So, we looked at some videos I had of this sort of thing. His Grace said, “These people need to be taught”. His Grace does not endorse the incorporation of Protestantism into the life of our Church. I think the problem is, the bishops can’t be present 100% of the time, and so they don’t get the whole picture. Think about how far away H.G. Anba David is for example from the churches you are referencing in these posts. Once H.H. Pope Tawadros enthrones regular bishops to oversee these areas, this sort of thing will have to stop. I kindly direct your attention to the following videos in which H.G. Anba David makes it clear that he does not support the use of Protestant songs or materials in our Church.
http://returntoorthodoxy.com/bishop-david-orthodox-faith/
http://returntoorthodoxy.com/bishop-david-enthroned-bishop-diocese-north-america/
The poster enumerating the so-called “Modern Fathers of the Orthodox Church” (a bunch of Evangelicals) was a joke of course, but its implications made me sick. The fact that any Coptic priest could be inspired by – or aspire for his congregation to be – like Saddleback Church or Hillsong – is disgusting and wrong. It is rooted in a lack of appreciation for the depth of Orthodoxy and a misunderstanding of ecclesiology. Protestantism is not part of the “One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church” spoken of in the creed.
It is sometimes tragic that we haven't been inspired by the missionary work of the other Orthodox (Eastern and Oriental) and Roman Catholics in the same way that we have with other sources.
We shouldn’t be inspired by the “other sources” at all. We shouldn’t be quoting Church Fathers contemporary Orthodox theologians alongside Max Lucado and Rick Warren – as if both are valid sources for our illumination – but rather the former to the exclusion of the latter. We cannot subsist on a diet of good food AND poison, and Evangelicalism is poison.
The ONE Conference? It's such a wonderful initiative. I hope it didn't scare the sister Churches.
Actually, Mina is right. It did, as did the “praise and worship” bands. There are some Coptic and Indian servants who have taken on these practices, but they are universally condemned by our other sister churches. Even their “theme song” is a song from the Charismatic Movement, and I don’t think they understand its origins or implications. It is a call for the “spirit” which motivates the Charismatic Movement (which is not the Holy Spirit, but something else) to “sweep over” and unite all churches. What is this spirit and what is its motive?
http://returntoorthodoxy.com/charismatic-revival-sign-times-seraphim-rose/
Orthodox unity is a “wonderful initiative”, but Orthodox unity cannot be achieved in tandem with Protestant influence. It is not only the Oriental Orthodox sister churches who were taken aback, as Mina has noted, but also the Eastern Orthodox from St. Vladimir’s seminary. There were many interesting conversations about both the content of the sermon and the Protestant songs that were sung afterwards. It is also noteworthy that the Protestant songs were sung before His Grace Anba David arrived and he was not aware that this had taken place. It is also noteworthy that the Coptic youth were not 100% pleased with the Protestant influence either. The idea that all of our youth love “praise & worship” and “Purpose Driven Life” is not true. There are many who love Orthodoxy instead, and yes, the two are mutually exclusive.
The bottom line is, this cannot be a part of our Church moving forward. We are not Anglicanism, and there cannot and will not be “high church” Orthodoxy and “low church” Orthodoxy within the Coptic Church, where if you like “praise & worship” and Rick Warren books you can go to a “mission church” and if you like tasbeha and “traditional worship” you can go to a “traditional church”. Contextualizing Orthodoxy in the West does not mean accepting Evangelical influence.
That makes sense but I feel like a lot of lectures I/we hear can appease any religion? If it can appease most religions, is that bad/non-orthodox?
Yes. Our job is not to appease people and make them comfortable where they are, but rather to lead them to the light and the fullness of the truth. That is what missionary work is all about. If we are simply to appease people, we are not winning them for Christ at all, but leaving them in their errors. Such actions wear the mask of love, but are not truly representative of love. It is like smiling and waving at someone sitting on the train tracks because you don’t want to be mean and tell them they’d better move.
What if the "Where then is Christ in all this? Where is the Eucharist?..." is supposed to be done on a personal level? What if he meant like here's how you know someone and it's up to you to apply that to Christ and so on?
Why would it not be appropriate to make such declarations unequivocally?
Final thought: What if he doesn't know he's preaching in a protestant manner? I am starting to see that most of the teachings I have heard are protestanty in a way and I'm just starting to differentiate between a protestant sermon and orthodox sermon. So what if most of what he was taught growing up was protestanty and he's just reteaching what he learned the wrong way?
I agree. He needs to be taught. That is all. This isn’t about condemning an individual, it is about correcting the teaching and the behavior. We can’t have a generation of youth growing up thinking that they can draw inspiration from Joel Osteen and Rick Warren as well as from St. Cyril and St. Athanasius, or that the Orthodox Church is just another “denomination” within Christianity along with the Protestants, et cetera.
Hi everyone, since this thread is about mission, does it really matter what material what our Abounas use or base their sermons on?
Yes, it absolutely does. This is like saying, “Does it matter if I make my baby’s formula from milk or bleach? After all, they are both liquids”. We have to have a correct view of Evangelical Protestantism for what it is. It is not “another branch of Christianity” that can be incorporated into the life of our Church. It is heresy and contrary to our teaching.
If the end goal is to bring people to Christ and show them that they can have a personal relationship with God does it matter what means we use?
Yes, you cannot lead someone to Christ – who is Truth – through lies and falsehood. Evangelicalism is falsehood and its teachings are lies. Their anthropocentric “worship” is not an acceptable offering of worship to God. It is not cultural, but rather rooted in heretical theology.
http://returntoorthodoxy.com/pope-demetrius-alexandria-papal-bull-protestantism/
What about people who might feel Orthodox Church too heavy shouldn't we make it more accessible for them so that they can be in the Church then get deeper when they're ready?
We’ll let Fr. Dawoud Lamie answer this question.
http://returntoorthodoxy.com/dawood-lamey-faith-orthodox-church/
Please, let’s not pretend that Evangelical Protestantism is merely “simple teaching”. There is a difference between starting someone off with simple teaching rooted in Orthodoxy before moving them on to complex theology and between feeding them on Protestantism. We can feed babies on milk before giving them steak, but not gasoline. Evangelical Protestatism is not a gateway to Christ and Orthodoxy, but a gateway to Satan and Hell. If we want to start the people with simple Orthodox teaching, fine, but that does not involve bringing Protestant tracts and songs into the life of our Church. The Antiochians have some wonderful introductory materials we could utilize if we are too lazy or ignorant to create our own. We don’t have to pick the poison berries from the Protestant’s bush.
Also these sermons are popular so isn't that expanding the influence of our Church?
No, it is expanding the influence of the Protestants these priests are influenced by within our Church.
Like our youth like this stuff and stay in the church and are more likely to suggest these sermons with their nonOrthodox friends.
What good does it do to keep our youth in the Church or have them invite their friends if the Church is no longer teaching and feeding them with Orthodoxy? And, if I am an Evangelical Protestant, why should I come to an Orthodox Church that is doing a poor imitation of what my church does well? Why not just stay where I am?
Also do people really need to know all the terms and big orthodox words to be saved? Isn't it more important that the sermons be practical and personal rather than technical and theological?
We shouldn’t draw a false dichotomy between the study of theology and a simple life of prayer and fasting. We can teach those who need it in simple terms without brining heterodoxy into the equation.
Like we're not a university so we don't really need all that high theology which just makes things complicated. We didnt have abounas in the past with theological phds and we survived so many years so we dont need to have theological abounas today.
His Holiness Pope St. Kyrillos was a simple man, but he was thoroughly Orthodox. The same with St. Abdelmessih al-Habashy. A theologian is one who prays, and the way we approach God when we pray is a reflection of our theology. Teaching the people in simple terms doesn’t mean bringing them the poison of Rick Warren, Max Lucado, Joel Osteen and company.