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Coptic Orthodox Bishops of North America issue statement on standardizedEnglish liturgical responses

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  • cyril
    Remnkemi also, isn't our theological basis Orthodox Theology? 

    What do we mean when we say melismatic theology? One can potentially theologize how the notes are sequenced with the words and say this symbolizes a particular meaning, but say we hum the hymns without any words, what theology is this melody proclaiming? How is it inherently theological without the words or the liturgical movements? 

    Melismatic hymnology can be beautiful, but like any musical form it takes work. The liturgy also takes work. Work sometimes involves being honest with where we are and where need to go. Let us strive for Christ, in what is beautiful, what is good and what is true.

    Back to nationalism...there's a narrative which is sometimes overlooked but which runs parallel to isolationalist and nationalist triumphalism: that of Babylonian Captivity...in our case...the influence of Islam...the work of Protestant and maybe RC proselytization...the suppression of Orthodox theology and reduction of beauty to preserving what we had...

    When we examine the Ottoman millet system it is surprising how compatible it is with the denominational model....

    The Nationalist reading of history will try to avoid a babylonian captivity or state that such a captivity had no effect on the purity of the nation....

    Maybe the modern exercise of a nationalized identity did help with encouraging us to have a "ressourcement", but those same nationalist and modernist readings of history may have caused us to remain in a captivity of our own choosing. 

    The demarcating of Coptic vs Non-Coptic saints, theology, icons, hymns, etc is also indicative of the nationalizing that we're discussing. Our theology is sometimes demarcated in the same way, we assume a spiritual nationalism...if it's not Coptic then it's suspect...

    Holy Tradition is also not frozen in the past, Holy Tradition is a dynamic thing that is critical of its past voices. It is not a blind assertion that all those who came before us are always correct (it is “giving our ancestors a vote” vs. a “tyranny of the dead”):
    “Tradition is the living faith of the dead, traditionalism is the dead faith of the living. And, I suppose I should add, it is traditionalism that gives tradition such a bad name” 
    Dr Jaroslav Pelikan, The Vindication of Tradition: The 1983 Jefferson Lecture in the Humanities, p. 65.

    Again, especially in the Lands of Immigration, looking inward and being apathetic to a relationship with other Orthodox Churches makes us all impoverished. How much richer is the Orthodox world when brother shows brother what was forgotten, or sister shares what is good and holy with her sister?

    Orthodoxy in North America might already be moving towards "American" or "Canadian" Orthodoxy. I've heard about EO parishes that are able to draw on multiple hymnographic traditions when they begin to look beyond jurisdictionalism. The hymns themselves are being formed and adapted, while speaking theology and doing so beautifully, with love, with prayer and with attention to "performance". 

    These hymns are not appealing to "praise, secularism, charismatic praise, reductionist praise" but to hymnology that builds on the Traditional recensions and is being sung in ways already different from the "Mother" Churches. The Coptic Orthodox Church is in the midst of this too, because the Church is incarnational and transfigures the world for the Glory of God.

    Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness....

    Can our Beloved and Holy Orthodox Church not also do the same?

    The Church, who, though being Bride, did not regard adoption/union in God as something to be exploited, but emptied, humbled herself in the likeness of Christ, becoming truly human for the sake of others and for the life of the world...


    "Orthodoxy has to tell the world what the world needs and what that need truly is...This is missiology, this is mission outreach, Missiology doesn't say come to the Orthodox Church because we're the true Church or because we have the true Tradition and only with us will you find salvation....missiology says I can help you understand yourself in ways you never imagine...and that is what we mean when we sing God is the Lord and has revealed Himself to us..."
  • cyril
    And as always some quotes for us to consider :P

    For some overview on the fostering of Coptic Identity in the modern concept of the nation Magdi Guirguis and Nelly van Doom-Harder's "The Emergence of the Modern Coptic Papacy" is a delightful read. For example the authors write about the establishment of the Coptic Museum:
    The museum provided an alternative, church-centered vision of Coptic identity and history. Within its walls, Coptic and pharaonic past complemented each other. It also served as a convenient ceremonial site for Muslim Egyptian officials to reconfirm their commitment to a shared national identity. (pg108)

    Guirguis and van Doom-Harder's book illustrates how identification of Coptic Identity is often woven with Egyptian Nationalism in the Modern Era (a similar Nationalist sentiment can sometimes be seen in our Greek and Armenian brothers and sisters). Our Church in the modern era fully contributed to fostering Egyptian National Identity. Perhaps these contributions were necessary to ensure that a Christian narrative was included in the Modern Egyptian Nation State. Let us thank God for the blessings bestowed on the Coptic Orthodox Church throughout the centuries and for the beauty which is revealed in and revealed by Christianity. Let us also be critical where things have been suppressed...

    Another interesting anthology is "Between Desert and the City: The Coptic Orthodox Church Today":

    On the effects of revival in light of Nationalism in Egypt:
    "It was towards the close of this period, during the 1940s and the beginning of the 1950s, that the specifically religious renewal of the Coptic Church began, involving an admirable spiritual strengthening and an affirmation of the Coptic religious identity from within; at the same time, however, this led also to a turning back on oneself and a mental retreat by the Copts from society as a whole." 
    Christiaan van Nispen tot Sevenaer, "Between Desert and the City: The Coptic Orthodox Church Today" page 26


    The effects of Egyptian National Consciousness:
    "The latter part of the century saw a Coptic Orthodox reaction against Western Christian influence. Partly it was a reaction against some of the most radical reforms of Kyrillos IV, but mainly it was part of the growth of an Egyptian national consciousness strengthened by the British occupation in 1882. The church had by then accepted many of the methods of the missionaries in areas like education and distribution of literature. Now these were used against the missionaries by Copts educated in the modern schools. Thus, the late nineteenth century gave rise to a renewal of Coptic theological literature, but largely in a polemical form. The themes were again decided by the opponents, Catholic and Protestant, rather than Muslim, and the role of the Coptic theologians was largely apologetic. The exposure to missionary activity had, however, made a deep impact. It is within a Western, mainly Catholic, theological framework that the Copts defend the controversial issues." 
    Samuel Rubenson, "Tradition and Renewal in Coptic Theology" in "Between Desert and the City: The Coptic Orthodox Church Today"  page 38


    On the Modern way of seeing cultural history:
    "The Copts consider themselves as the heirs of the ancient Egyptians, as unique as those from an Islamic, Greek, Armenian or Jewish background. This "back-to-the-roots" movement is rather recent. Otto Meinardus remarked that the notion of the Copts being "the sons of the Pharaohs" was absent in ancient writings. An explanation of the present attitude can be found in a combination of a political tendency towards nationalism and the scientific study of the past. From the 19th century onward, archaeological discoveries considerably enlarged the knowledge on Egypt's Pharaonic history. This influx of new historical information had important consequences for the self-confidence of the Copts. It strengthened them in their opinion that the Coptic Orthodox Church was above all a national church.

    According to Fanous, Coptic art had strong roots in the art of the Pharaonic period. His aim is to return to these roots, and to purify the iconographic heritage from all non-Egyptian influences, such as the traces of the Byzantine and Western cultural heritage. It seems, however, that the task of creating a purely Egyptian art with which the Coptic icon painters charged themselves is somewhat too heavy: a complete purification is impossible." 
    Mat Immerzeel, "Coptic Art" in "Between Desert and the City: The Coptic Orthodox Church Today" page 281
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi






    Remnkemi also, isn't our theological basis Orthodox Theology? 

    I have no idea what you are asking me. 

    What do we mean when we say melismatic theology? One can potentially theologize how the notes are sequenced with the words and say this symbolizes a particular meaning, but say we hum the hymns without any words, what theology is this melody proclaiming? How is it inherently theological without the words or the liturgical movements? 

    Therein lies your problem. I already asserted that those who want to remove Coptic sacred music have a misunderstanding of Coptic theology. It is not words only that forms our theology. If it were, we would be sola scriptura. It is first and foremost based on the actual physical presence of Christ. Read 1 John 1:1-3. Our theology of melismata is based Romans 8:26, 27 and the physical presence of the Holy Spirit. Even the video meenahanna referenced showed Pope Shenouda speaking of "movement in the Spirit". That is our melismatic theology. It is apprehensive to those who only understand or want a musical tradition that uses words and voluptuous music to invoke human emotions (which is charismatic praise).

    Holy Tradition is also not frozen in the past, Holy Tradition is a dynamic thing that is critical of its past voices. It is not a blind assertion that all those who came before us are always correct (it is “giving our ancestors a vote” vs. a “tyranny of the dead”):

    So then by this logic we must assume that our patristic fathers and their apologetic writings must be incorrect. Our patristic fathers are tyrants of the dead if we still reference them today. The same must hold true for the Scriptures also. A document written 2000+ years ago gives our ancestors a vote over us living today and that must be wrong. And I suppose St Paul must have been out of his mind when he said, "even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel than what we preached to you (and we can assume he meant chronologically after the gospel he/they preached), let him be accursed " Gal 1:8. Talk about being a tyrant.

    “Tradition is the living faith of the dead, traditionalism is the dead faith of the living. And, I suppose I should add, it is traditionalism that gives tradition such a bad name” 

    Dr Jaroslav Pelikan, The Vindication of Tradition: The 1983 Jefferson Lecture in the Humanities, p. 65.

    Very nice rhetoric. It means nothing if it is not applied. I claim Coptic music and melismata is the living faith of those who died and came before us. You apparently want us to believe Coptic music is the dead faith of the living. Maybe we are at an impass. But I have yet to see any practical evidence that abandoning our Coptic tradition is nothing more than an attempt to undermine our theology.

    Again, especially in the Lands of Immigration, looking inward and being apathetic to a relationship with other Orthodox Churches makes us all impoverished. How much richer is the Orthodox world when brother shows brother what was forgotten, or sister shares what is good and holy with her sister?

    Orthodoxy in North America might already be moving towards "American" or "Canadian" Orthodoxy. I've heard about EO parishes that are able to draw on multiple hymnographic traditions when they begin to look beyond jurisdictionalism. The hymns themselves are being formed and adapted, while speaking theology and doing so beautifully, with love, with prayer and with attention to "performance". 

    Find me one example, one practical example of EO parishes drawing from Coptic melismatic hymnography in their own liturgical rites. I can find you examples of EO (and even Syrian Orthodox) who regret adding musical instruments to their tradition because it undermined their theology. You're speaking in the abstract. The reality is there has never been any attempt by the EO to adopt Coptic hymnography. So while it may theoretically make the Orthodox world richer when brother shows brother what is forgotten, that is not the reality. It is also completely different to introduce someone to your past vs. incorporating their past into your liturgical tradition. What you are asking for the latter by illustrating the prior.

    These hymns are not appealing to "praise, secularism, charismatic praise, reductionist praise" but to hymnology that builds on the Traditional recensions and is being sung in ways already different from the "Mother" Churches. 

    Sounds like foolish modernity to me. As I described in my first post, always changing your identity in the name of modernity creates an amorphous, undefinable entity that has no structure. Ask any convert. The number one reason for conversion is they wanted to go to a church that has held on to its roots. They wanted a church in the diaspora that is nearly identical to her Mother Church which is nearly identical to the Church of the Apostles. Recensions are ok as long as they are done within certain boundaries. You are asking to remove those boundaries to conform to whatever the EO or any other charismatic Orthodox praise is doing and all along the EO and other Orthodox Churches refuse to remove those boundaries and conform with the Coptic Church.

    The Coptic Orthodox Church is in the midst of this too, because the Church is incarnational and transfigures the world for the Glory of God.

    Are you asking for Christ transfiguring the world through Coptic praise or the Coptic Church to transfigure to the world? 

    The rest of your posts continue to reference nationalism. I already told you this has nothing to do with nationalism. You claim the only reason to adhere to tradition is nationalism. I think you're misguided to believe copying (or building on) other musical traditions is going to somehow fix the Coptic Church. I think you're misguided to believe the Coptic Church has a problem in music hymnology or even missionology. The problem is not the music, it is the general misunderstanding of Coptic theology. 

  • cyril
    Hi Remnkemi what is Coptic theology?
  • StavroStavro
    Under the auspices of Their Graces Bishop Serapion, Bishop Youssef, Bishop David, Bishop Mina, and others,

    What about Anba Michael? 

  • EsmoEpchoisEsmoEpchois
    His Holiness confirmed that he is just a general bishop and I think got sent back to Egypt but not exactly sure
  • StavroStavro
    Anba Raphael is "just" a general bishop. Does this mean he is to be brushed aside? 

    All the bishops of North America were "general" bishops at one point of time. In fact, they were never re-ordained to anything else. They are technically general bishops till this day.   

    What is the problem with Anba Michael? Has he been officially suspended from service? For what reason? 

     

     


  • EsmoEpchoisEsmoEpchois
    The bishops mentioned above are all diocese bishops. Before that, if they did meet, I'm sure they included bishop Michael but as neither him nor bishop David had diocese's, they were just general meetings or something, not meetings trying to unify North America.

    And I say his holiness confirmed he's just a general bishop because there was controversy as to whether or not he was general or diocesan(he was ordained by pope Shenouda general bishop, but the paper work signed was that he was for a diocese from what I heard). So he didn't get suspended from service or anything, just that he's a confirmed general bishop.
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    We're going back into semantics. Yes technically the diocesan bishops of US and Canada were general bishops before, this doesn't mean that diocesan bishops and general bishops should be seen as identical. These general bishops were elevated to diocesan bishops, just like a presbyter is elevated to hegumen. 

    I know that Bishop Michael was included in the diocesan bishop meeting of the US and Canada to unify things in North America after Bishop David became diocesan bishop. Apparently, he has chosen to remain general bishop due to the conflict. He is a really humble man. I knew him years ago when he was a priest serving many churches in the early 80's. We should all learn and emulate the humility found in him. May the Lord preserve His life. 
  • cyril
    Amen. Many years!
  • StavroStavro

    after Bishop David became diocesan bishop <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" />

    Was it the initiative of Bishop David after he became a diocleasan bishop?

    I know that Bishop Michael was included in the diocesan bishop meeting of the US and Canada to unify things in North America after Bishop David became diocesan bishop.

    That’s what I want to know. It is nice to know that Anba Michael is still relevant. Why didn’t the LA diocese include his name in the bishops attending the meeting? Is it because of his lower rank?

    We're going back into semantics. Yes technically the diocesan bishops of US and Canada were general bishops before, this doesn't mean that diocesan bishops and general bishops should be seen as identical. These general bishops were elevated to diocesan bishops, just like a presbyter is elevated to hegumen.    

    It is not semantics. It is the lack of proper understanding and practice of ecclesiology that makes the heresies and transgressions, associated with the rank of general bishop, normal and accepted in our days.

    I remember we discussed this topic in 33 pages prior to the elections of the Pope, but I could not locate the topic. Instead of rehashing the arguments about this rank, which will lead to other controversial topics, a reference to the topic would be the better solution. Is THE topic deleted?

    He is a really humble man. I knew him years ago when he was a priest serving many churches in the early 80's.   

    I know him as well. He is a humble and saintly man who served in this area for a long time, and wanted to reverse many non-orthodox trends in the DC area, but the wonder boys in the area proved more powerful and cunning than the simple and humble bishop. Sorry, general bishop.  

    Apparently, he has chosen to remain general bishop due to the conflict.   

    Anba Michael did not choose to stay a general bishop to distance himself from the “conflict”.

    There was referendum, initiated by Anba Tawadrous, to ask the clergy and the congregations of the six churches under Anba Michael to vote on whether or not they agree to make Anba Michael a diocesan bishop for the area he is already a general bishop of. The result of the referendum was a rejection of this “appointment / promotion”.

    Regardless of the dubious results of this referendum, which Anba Michael contested in the meeting of the Holy Synod as reported by Egyptian newspapers, it was not the choice of Anba Michael to stay as general bishop.

    May his prayers be with us all, Amen.

     

  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    I don't know who initiated the diocesan meeting. I also don't know why the LA diocese did not include Bishop Michael. I don't think it had anything to do with ranking but I can't speak for them.

    I don't think the 33 page thread is deleted. I'll look for it. 

    You are more knowledgable about church events than I am. I defer to your assessment of Bishop Michael's status.
  • qawe
    @Stavro

    In what way were the results of the referendum 'dubious'?
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