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Pentecost Sagda Prayers
Hi does anyone have an English translation of the Kneeling/Prostration prayers that include the bits that were removed? Ie. A version of the sagda prayers that matches the theology of the other Orthodox Churches?
Comments
In the meeting of 29/5/1999:
The Holy Synod decided to remove the following three phrases from the Rite of the Kneeling Prayers, in the Third Litany:
1) "and also You absolve it and take it to that place [Paradise]"
2) "those who are in Hades now, we have the hope that You will absolve all those who are in various sufferings..."
3)
"for those who are dead do not praise You, and those who are in Hades
do not confess You, but we the living" (implying that we intercede for
them).
@aiernovi and all,
What's the problem of us interceding for those who died? I can't understand point number 3..
Oujai
On a side note, there's a beautiful meditation on the Prostration prayers at Fr Steven Freeman's blog: http://glory2godforallthings.com/2014/06/06/pentecost-and-the-liturgy-of-hades/
I wonder what it means for us now that the prayers have been removed since 1999 :s ?
minasoliman I agree.
"Love could not bear that..."
And
"Today is the day of Resurrection...
We celebrate the death of death, the destruction of hell, the beginning of eternal life. And leaping for joy, we celebrate the Cause, the only blessed and most glorious God of our fathers...
Today the Master conquered hell and raised the prisoners from all the ages which it had held in bitter bondage..."
@minatasgeel,
Of course what aiernovi translated a part of the psalm so that's not what was taken out, or was it? Secondly is the redemption a continuous process or one of the past that ended? I believe it's the former. If someone dies and he has lived a corrupt life in our eyes, are we to judge? Also how come in commemoration we mention both saints from the old and new testaments? I mean how certain are we the ones we have hailed as saints have been redeemed by God? How much knowledge do we have? And therefore how much hope?
Oujai
The whole point of the prayers of the Church is that somehow there is a way what through intercession a soul which would ordinarily might have been lost could find grace in God's eyes. The fear and terror of the individual in hades is real but its not final; not until the judgement where God will decide once and for all.
There is a story that Fr Bishoy from CYC tells that illustrates this very well.
There was a brash youth who was handsome and wealthy and all the women he knew wanted to marry him. Fr Bishoy went to visit him one day and talked with him about God. The young man was too enamoured with how much he was enjoying life to pay any attention to what Fr Bishoy was saying. Fr Bishoy pressed him and said, "what if God were to take you now while you're young?" The young man said, "easy, I would repent then and there." So Fr Bishoy figured the young man was too self assured and left him to his own devices.
Anyhow a time passed and a man came one day to Fr Bishoy and said "Father, do you remember me?" He looked at the man and didn't really remember who he was. He said "I'm the man that you came to and warned me about repentance and the spiritual life but i didn't listen." Fr Bishoy strained and then had a vague recollection of the discussion and the young man went to tell his story.
This story shows that a man's fate when he descends to the deep dark place (sheol or hades) cannot be changed from within, they have done all that they have done. The only thing which can now influence their destiny is the prayers of those outside, particularly those of the saints.
It is the experience of the Church that our prayers do indeed influence the fate of souls in the prison and there are stories like this where souls were either given another chance or were transferring into life because of the mercies of God finding an opportunity in the intercession of the saints. If the final judgement has not happened then we should trust the mercy of God that by combining our prayers with those of the saints there may be some who may have erred at the last moment while perhaps leading a virtuous life that God may pardon on our account. This is why these prayers are some important and should be remembered by the Church at every moment.
@minatasgeel,
I sense that I've annoyed you greatly. I'm sorry. If you're annoyed take a break from my posts. I'm not playing with words for the sake of the argument. I'm more in the position of @minasoliman..
Oujai
Byzantine Prayers
Coptic Prayers
You measure out the years for the living and set times of death, bringing down to Hades and raising up, fettering in weakness and liberating in power; You provide aptly for the present and fittingly dispose what is to come, restoring those who are wounded by the sting of death with the hope of resurrection.
You give existence to man and he lives and You bring death upon him with Your dominion.
(1)"and also You absolve it and take it to that place [Paradise]"
You overcame the sting of death that it may not have power over the believers nor on those who look forward to the resurrection of the dead.
Byzantine
Coptic
On this universal and salutary feast, deign to accept petitions
for those imprisoned in Hades, thus giving us great hope, and relief to the departed from their grievous distress and Your comfort.
We supplicate to You to accept our prayers on this sacred Day.
Grant perfection to us and repose to those who commended their souls into Your hands.
Byzantine
Coptic
...counting them worthy of peace and repose;
Make them worthy of peaceful rest and of forgiveness of sins
(3)"for those who are dead do not praise You, and those who are in Hades do not confess You, but we the living…"
This extended manuscript also maps up with the Byzantine version:
It makes me wonder if there were two edits done :S One to make the prayer shorter and the second to "correct" the theology of the liturgical prayers.
Coptic (Burmester Manuscript)
Coptic Prayers
O Lord God, of Thy great mercy have compassion on Thy servants the living and the dead, O Creator; for Thou hast made them to exist from that which was not, and again Thou hast loosed them that Thou mayest transfer them hence; Who dost give an existence to man that he may live, and dost bring upon him death; Who didst cripple the sting of Death, that he might not have authority over those who believe in Him and hope in the Resurrection.
You give existence to man and he lives and You bring death upon him with Your dominion.
(1)"and also You absolve it and take it to that place [Paradise]"
You overcame the sting of death that it may not have power over the believers nor on those who look forward to the resurrection of the dead.
Coptic (Burmester Manuscript)
Coptic Prayers
We beseech Thee to receive our prayer on this holy day which is the fulfilment of all things for our sake and
for the sake of those who are in Amenti(Hades), for we have great hope concerning the release of all those who are in every kind of suffering and those who have delivered their souls into Thine Hand.
We supplicate to You to accept our prayers on this sacred Day.
(2)"for those who are in Hades now, we have the hope that You will absolve all those who are in various sufferings...”
Grant perfection to us and repose to those who commended their souls into Your hands.
Coptic (Burmester Manuscript)
Coptic Prayers
Cause their souls to dwell in the tabernacles of light and make them worthy of forgiveness and peace. For the dead shall not praise Thee, O Lord, neither shall those in Amenti (Hades) openly confess Thee, but we who are alive shall bless Thee, and supplicate Thee, and offer unto Thee these prayers and these sacrifices on behalf of their souls.
May their souls abide in the shadow of light. Make them worthy of peaceful rest and of forgiveness of sins
(3)"for those who are dead do not praise You, and those who are in Hades do not confess You, but we the living…"
praise You and thank You and offer You these prayers and these sacrifices for the sake of our souls.
Could it not be inferred that the prayers are for those in hades too?
Praying for the dead and offering sacrifices on behalf of the dead for the remission of sins or purification are obviously allowable. It is the idea that one can transfer out of Hades that is a problem. Heaven, Hades, and earth are all going to pass away in the final judgment. See 2 Peter 3. However, knowing that Hades will be destroyed doesn't mean Hades is a weak holding place and it has no importance. The same is true of sinning. If prayers for the dead and sacrifices annul the sin of the one in Hades as it does while one is alive, what is the point of suffering and steadfastness? In Ezekiel 18, God says that the righteous lives, the one who sins dies. "The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them...But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them." This is all well and good when one is alive. But one who has died in sins does not have the benefit of annulling sins and returning to the place of living. That is why St Peter, speaking of the day of the Lord, says "Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position." Why forewarn someone that lawless people will be carried away and fall from a secure position if a posthumous sacrifice will annul that lawlessness and restore that person to his secure position? This is the problem with purgatory. It's one thing to believe in posthumous purification, it's another thing to believe that this purification has the ability to transfer you from an inescapable prison to paradise.
By the way, that article is filled with assumptions and erroneous logic.
In this framework, I think we can reconcile the patristic writings on prayers for the dead and recent changes in the Genuflection rite of the Coptic Church.