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Bishop Ordination

copticuser20copticuser20
edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
Hi. Can someone explain to me the reason for the rites of the Bishop Ordinations please? What happened in vespers and why do they begin at vespers?

Please pray for me and my mom.

Comments

  • kastor999kastor999
    the bishops ordinations  and its rites were refined by His Holiness Pope Shenouda......he included the oaths that he wrote...oaths for a general bishop, oath for diocene bishop and oath for a bishop who will be the abbot of a monastery. as such, he made it mandatory for the elected monk to read the oaths out loud in public in front of the altar, His Holiness, and his brothers the elder bishops.....He also included the blessing and wearing of the outer robe as well as introducing the new bishop to the congregation by parading them through the cathedral.....there is really no time for any of that to occur during the actual ordination the following day during liturgy....thats why its done during vespers....that is all
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    Interesting...

    What was the rite like before HH Pope Shenouda added to it?
  • kastor999kastor999
    the rites of the ordination has not changed at all.....HHPS3 only added to it
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    okay...apart from what HH Pope Shenouda added, what is the difference in prayers between diocesan bishop, abbot bishop, general bishop, etc.
  • qawe
    .
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    Yes, HH Pope St. Kyrillos VI started it.  Only 3 bishops were ordained general, and they were all for social services, not for areas, not title-less.  Interestingly enough, their services may have even overlapped at times.  HH Pope St. Kyrillos did not give those 3 bishops any Synodal power.  It was HH Pope Shenouda who did.

    So aside from the distinctive oaths, it looks like the prayers for both a general and a diocesan bishop are practically the same.
  • qawe
    .
  • meenahannameenahanna
    Minasoliman, how did you come up with the conclusion that H.H. pope kyrillos did not give these three bishops any syndol power? Are you trying to say that pope shenouda was truly not a bishop equipped with full authority from the synod?. If His Holiness Pope Kyrillos wanted to ordain him a subbishop he could have. This is truly a first, look at this video

    After watching this video no one can make the argument that pope shenouda strayed from the orthodox rights. Rather, many church scholars would contend that His Holiness Pope Shenouda restored and revived many of the orthodox church rights. Our church is truly indebted to Pope Shenouda. His Holiness revived the tasbeha, agpeya, and wed and friday fastings and many of rights of ordination if you watch the above clip.

    Truly our church is lucky to have pope kyrillos, and pope shenouda, and pope tawadros.
  • qawe
    .
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    [quote author=meenahanna link=topic=14324.msg163775#msg163775 date=1363216253]
    Minasoliman, how did you come up with the conclusion that H.H. pope kyrillos did not give these three bishops any syndol power? Are you trying to say that pope shenouda was truly not a bishop equipped with full authority from the synod?. If His Holiness Pope Kyrillos wanted to ordain him a subbishop he could have. This is truly a first, look at this video

    After watching this video no one can make the argument that pope shenouda strayed from the orthodox rights. Rather, many church scholars would contend that His Holiness Pope Shenouda restored and revived many of the orthodox church rights. Our church is truly indebted to Pope Shenouda. His Holiness revived the tasbeha, agpeya, and wed and friday fastings and many of rights of ordination if you watch the above clip.

    Truly our church is lucky to have pope kyrillos, and pope shenouda, and pope tawadros.


    I'm saying that the three general bishops HH Pope St. Kyrillos ordained did not have Synodal vote power or the power to ordain priests by themselves.  They just weren't allowed.  HH Pope Shenouda is the one who gave general bishops Synodal power, but they still aren't allowed to ordain priests by themselves, because they don't have a real diocese.  In the beginning of his papacy, HH Pope Shenouda mentioned this in a speech to the congregation, that he desired to give Synodal power to general bishops, unlike his predecessor.

    If you want to get technical, there was NEVER such a thing as "general bishop" in the ancient Church.  A bishop always held a diocese.  A bishop without a diocese was extremely rare and only occurred when the diocese actually rejected the bishop (literally less than the fingers on one hand you can count the number of times one can see incidences recorded of bishops "stuck" without a diocese).  So, if you want to get into technicalities, the idea of a general bishop is a brand new "tradition", that is ordaining a bishop for the sole purpose of a service without a diocese was never a tradition in the ancient Church. 

    Perhaps...maybe, this is why HH Pope St. Kyrillos did not want to give these bishops Synodal power.  And perhaps, because we were coming out of the dark ages of the Coptic Church, the social services these bishops provided were of utmost importance for the Church.  In my opinion, we don't need general bishops anymore.  Just as the Apostles were unable to provide for social services as the demand multiplied, they ordained deacons, so we should no longer have general bishops, since we are no longer in dark ages and the demand is multiplied, but ordain deacons for social services.

    I'm not saying we're not indebted HH Pope Shenouda.  He is a great Pope that will live as one of the greatest.  That still doesn't excuse the fact that the title "general bishop" was non-existent before HH Pope Kyrillos' time, and thus brings a lot of people, who care about the canonicity of the Church, and the practicalities along with it, uneasy with the title.

    For a 37 min. video, can you give me a summary?
  • qawe
    .
  • meenahannameenahanna
    qawe, i stated:  Are you trying to say that pope shenouda was truly not a bishop equipped with full authority from the synod?. If His Holiness Pope Kyrillos wanted to ordain him a subbishop he could have.
    i am referring to bishop shenouda, not pope shenouda that's why i said pope kyrillos could have ordained him a subbishop if he wanted to.

    minasoliman, can i ask you a question, when His Holiness Pope Kyrillos was ordaining additional bishops, would bishop shenouda participate in the ordination prayers as a bishop. what do you mean that he does not have any sydnol powers? are you saying they were not in the bishops or members of the holy synod?
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    I don't know if their graces the general bishops at the time were involved in the laying of hands in ordaining bishops.  Maybe someone else knows this part more than I do.  I understand that they could perhaps attend Synodal meetings.  But they did not have voting power.  They were as good as observers in the Synod.  Perhaps they gave advice about what they need in their service.  But to vote on canonical issues was reserved only for the diocesan bishops of the Synod.
  • qawe
    [quote author=meenahanna link=topic=14324.msg163782#msg163782 date=1363301218]
    qawe, i stated:  Are you trying to say that pope shenouda was truly not a bishop equipped with full authority from the synod?. If His Holiness Pope Kyrillos wanted to ordain him a subbishop he could have.
    i am referring to bishop shenouda, not pope shenouda that's why i said pope kyrillos could have ordained him a subbishop if he wanted to.


    What's a subbishop?  Khoori episcopos?
    "Are you trying to say pope [bishop] shenouda was truly not... equipped with full authority from the Synod?" - I don't get your point.  Isn't this exactly what minasoliman is saying?  No-one's trying to say anything.

    I may be misunderstanding you, if so, please forgive me and clarify it for me.
  • meenahannameenahanna
    how does one make such a rash statement like that without any references. You are concluding that pope kyrillos did not give bishop shenouda any synodol powers...however the reason I said your are trying to say that is bc u don't. Provide proof or references, just blanket conclusions. Anyways I'm no longer engaging in this conversation especially since his feast is coming up shortly. God bless!
  • minasolimanminasoliman
    Meena,

    I don't understand your frustration.  If I can find the video where he says it, I'll send it to you.  I'll also pull put a book reference for you if that makes you feel better.

    I listened to a part of the video you sent. Even HH himself admits he added some innovations to the rites, and some rites he restored.  Not "everything" we do in Church was an ancient tradition.  I'm not insulting any bishop or pope either.  I'm just stating facts of history.

    God bless you too.
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