Altar Procession

I just need clarification on something. The altar procession is termed "The procession of the Cross" in the SUS Copts Deacon Service Book and the rite states that the deacon only carries the cross and goes around the altar. This contrary to some practices here in Australia. Does anyone have any other resources showing this rite (videos, ibn kabar or any other book)?

Thank You
God Bless

Comments

  • Sorry mate, don’t have any sources. But even here in the States deacons do the procession with both the cross and the Gospel. Technically, the Gospel should be used along with the cross only prior to the reading of the Gospel. You know when the deacon stands outside and says “Pray for the holy Gospel” & then enters the altar and makes a procession with Abouna. All other times i.e. before the Paulin Reading & the Praxis only the cross should be used.

    Again, this is rarely, if ever, done in practice. In practice the Gospel is used in all the processions along with the cross.

    Hope that helped.


    In Christ
    Theophilus 
  • I understand that it used to always be both the cross and gospel, but recently the Synod changed it to the cross only (excluding the gospel procession)
  • Thanks Theophilus!! Is there a reason why we dont practice it??
    and qawe, do you have a source to confirm this??

    God Bless
  • [quote author=Faithfull Servant 1 link=topic=14271.msg163471#msg163471 date=1361520948]
    Thanks Theophilus!! Is there a reason why we dont practice it??
    and qawe, do you have a source to confirm this??

    God Bless


    Word of mouth from clergy
  • sounds legit...  ;D

    God Bless
  • [quote author=Faithfull Servant 1 link=topic=14271.msg163471#msg163471 date=1361520948]
    Thanks Theophilus!! Is there a reason why we dont practice it??
    and qawe, do you have a source to confirm this??

    God Bless



    I am not sure why it is not practiced. One theory I heard is that the Gospel became part of the procession just to train young psaltoses on how to do the procession. So, if an older deacon got the cross he will just give the Gospel to the kid and allow him to tag along. But with time it became “mandator”. I am not sure how accurate this etiology is.

    There are some things we do during the liturgy out of habit that are not accurate. Hopefully, like Qawe said the Synod will help us rediscover the accurate Tradition of the divine liturgy.

    In Christ
    Theophilus 
  • I second what Theophilus says.

    To whoever said the Synod said that it's only the cross, when and where exactly? I am not disagreeing, in fact i believe it is the proper tradition...but i just haven't heard any definite rule from the Synod.
  • Is there like a website that keeps the decisions made by the Holy Synod, or a Video that has them deciding this, or piece of paper that is signed by them, or one of the Bishops (Anba Youseff or Anba Rofaeel) saying so??

    If anyone has one of these please share for the glory of God.
    Also in Dare al-muahraq my friend says that they do it only with the cross.

    God Bless
  • If someone has good arabic skills they can try and search this site.

    http://www.theholysynod.copticpope.org/aspect01.htm

    God Bless
  • What follows is an extremely unsourced and mostly made-up version of what I believe is the truth. It pieces together a lot of things we are taught in the church into a bigger picture.

    First of all, for some reason, deacons stopped holding the cross when saying any response from the altar. For example, we still hold the cross when saying "Stand up with the fear..." (is-ta-the-te), "Ensofia...", "Sotis. Amen. Ke to...", and a couple of other responses, but for the most part we now just say the response without holding the cross. (At least at my church and the churches in the GTA. At St. Moses' Monastery in Texas they still hold the cross for every response.)

    Secondly, I make the very probable assumption that at some point in our church's past, all these beautiful "inaudible" prayers were chanted audibly for the whole congregation to hear. For example, the seven litanies after the Gospel are sometimes chanted out loud, but most often Abouna will pray them while the Gospel is read. As I'm sure you're aware, during the incense processions, Abouna is praying three litanies (and an extra one, the Litany of the Oblations, if it has not already been prayed), and the deacon is supposed to reply to them inaudibly (something which, frankly, does not make sense).

    Now, this is where we start connecting things and making large assumptions. One can imagine that at some point in the past, the priest would be circling the altar, praying these litanies out loud, and the deacon, holding the cross, would be responding. We've come to the point where the priest is praying the litanies in his heart, yet the deacon is still circling the altar and holding the cross, albeit pointlessly.

    The bishara (silver Gospel) here has no point, and only belongs in the Procession of the Gospel as it is blessed by Abouna and given to the reader. How it was introduced into these processions is a bit of a mystery, but I (very sadly) agree with the idea that it was introduced to give the little kids "something to do" during the Divine Liturgy.

    I'd be delighted if someone could enlighten us with some real sources!
  • Dear Michael Botros,
    I don't think the practice of reciting prayers inaudibly is contrary to what used to happen.. indeed, it's becoming the norm when it ought not to be, that priests recite all prayers, or most, audibly.. this is not right.. in the olden days sotis used to be chanted to the end and the servants absolution recited silently with congregation kneeling..
    oujai
  • Thanx for the Input Michael!!
    Ophadece, do you have any sources or know where we can get some to clarify this??

    God Bless
  • In the Eritrean/Ethiopian Orthodox Church, only two deacons say the responses inside the altar - the main deacon & the subdeacon. The main deacon will stand opposite to the priest the whole time holding the cross. The cross used is always the big processional cross and not the small one. This is similar to the one time a deacon will hold the cross and stand opposite to the priest in the Coptic liturgy right before they take the Prospharine (the large cloth) off and sing “Through the intercession...”. At every response that is directed to the congregations the deacon will make a procession with the cross toward the people and stand at the royal gate facing the congregation and instruct the congregation (e.g. Pray for the...) and then completes the procession.

    During the Paulin Epistle the Priest and the deacon leaves the altar with the deacon leading the way with the cross. They circle around each other making the sign of the cross in front of the royal gate & then heads down towards the west and repeats making the sign of the cross by circling around each other & returns back to the altar. As they are heading down the priest bless those who are prepared to take communion on that day giving them an opportunity for a quick confession while the readings are going on.

    Before the Gospel reading everyone stands outside the altar and the priest prays the litany of the Gospel and the deacon leads the congregation in singing the Psalm for the day antiphonally. After this the deacon and the priest will enter the altar and make a procession with the deacon holding the cross and a candle while the Priest follows with the Bible, not the bishara (silver Gospel). They go out and exchange what they are carrying in front the royal gate. The deacon holds the Gospel facing to the west & the priest holds the cross and the candle facing to the east (with his back to the people). During the reading another deacon will hold a ceremonial umbrella for the honor of the Gospel and stands behind the priest also facing to the east.


    I am sure the Eritrean/Ethiopian church has changed somethings in the liturgy in adapting it to our culture. In addition, we have liturgical influences from all over 5th century Christendom and not just a Coptic influence. Case in point, the 14 anaphoras translated form Rome, Antioch, Constantionple, etc. by the 9 saints who came to Ethiopia at the end of the 5th century after the official conversion of Ethiopia in 328 A.D. by St. Fermantius.

    However, by researching the things we have in common we might be able to identify what the traditional ways are and what changes have been made through the centuries. Such a method is used by linguists - comparing common words and grammatical rules between languages to identify their common ancestral language. 


    Praise be to God for giving us such a beautiful religion & worship system.

    In Christ
    Theophilus
  • No faithful servant 1, I don't have references, only what I learnt over the years..
    oujai
  • [quote author=Theophilus 1 link=topic=14271.msg163361#msg163361 date=1361145677]
    Sorry mate, don’t have any sources. But even here in the States deacons do the procession with both the cross and the Gospel. Technically, the Gospel should be used along with the cross only prior to the reading of the Gospel. You know when the deacon stands outside and says “Pray for the holy Gospel” & then enters the altar and makes a procession with Abouna. All other times i.e. before the Paulin Reading & the Praxis only the cross should be used.

    Again, this is rarely, if ever, done in practice. In practice the Gospel is used in all the processions along with the cross.

    Hope that helped.


    In Christ
    Theophilus 


    Here in the Los Angeles Diocese under the leadership of HG Bishop Serapion, we only use the Cross for the process during the Pauline and the Praxis Readings. The Gospel goes with the Cross during the procession right before the deacon chants "Estathete..."
  • The Gospel (al Beshara) should only be used in the litany of the Gospel. The original rite is to have the priests kiss the gospel before it is being read. In the old days they used to hold the actual book from which the gospel would be read.

    This is mentioned in several manuscripts.
  • But doesnt anyone have a source (scanned page or internet site) saying that??

    God Bless
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