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question of an outsider of orthodoxy
what are the differences between coptic orthodoxy and eastern orthodoxy??
Comments
Introduction to the Coptic Orthodox Church
Part 1: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vrPIOOBU18
Part 2: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk_ejeeEwJ0&feature=relmfu
Documentary
Coptic Orthodox Church
Also, pray for God's guidance that your salvation may be the end result.
God bless you and guide you.
1. if u change to become orthodox, u should follow God's leading. He has a purpose for yr life and will show u where to go. the oriental orthodox ('miaphysite') and eastern orthodox (chalcedonian) churches are very similar. there have been some disagreements over the centuries, but we are working towards unity.
see: http://orthodoxunity.org
2. the canon of the coptic church is all the laws that were ever made, many of which don't apply to our time. very few people know all of them, u need to study for many years to understand it.
our beliefs are summarised in the nicene-constantinopolitan creed:
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Nicene-Constantinopolitan_Creed
3. the apostolic constitutions is a good book that helps us to understand things about the early church. it helps us understand some of our traditions.
4. catholics who join orthodox churches are chrismated, not rebaptised, so the sacrements are considered valid. we just disagree with a few teachings (immaculate conception of mary, purgatory (although we do pray for the dead) and papal infallibility being the main ones).
so we don't allow orthodox people to take holy communion in a catholic church except in special occasions (catholic/orthodox marriages, for example).
5. our 'hardcore' fasting ;) is extremely useful in helping us develop a good relationship with God.
6. each one fasts as much as he or she can, under the guidance of the priest. most people keep most fasts, although some only fast during lent. people who are becoming orthodox or who have not grown up fasting do it gradually, eg they might abstain from meat but still eat dairy products. the main purpose in fasting is to pray more and dedicate time to one's spiritual life (Holy Communion, prayer, working on having a good character, Bible study etc). also during the fasts we try to give money to the poor and to speak about our faith with people we meet. priests, of course are better at fasting and monks fast more strictly. there are no rules set in stone, so things may vary from place to place.
7. we have 2 sorts of priests; celibate priests (who are usually monks) and married priests. if someone is called to be a priest (by God), he needs to first get married, or make a vow of celibacy.
8. the 'mood' in our services is that we try hard not to rely on our emotions or moods when we worship God. God deserves our praise and adoration whether we feel like it or not. so we focus on the words of the prayers and on God's greatness and give Him praise. the fasting, the icons, the incense and the peaceful chanting all help us to do this. sometimes we have to ignore our emotions because we are too much affected by the week we had or the world around us. sometimes we are blessed with moments of deep peace and intimacy with God.
hope this helps, may God bless u and please pray for us too.
mabsoota (it means 'happy')
:)
it is basically the same as the catholic one. i think we have maccabees 4 which u guys don't have. but u have wisdom of sirach and tobias and judith and the extra bits of daniel, so u are ok in this matter.
here is more info:
http://orthodoxstudybible.com/uploads/BibleBooksChart.pdf
ah, ok.
it is basically the same as the catholic one. i think we have maccabees 4 which u guys don't have. but u have wisdom of sirach and tobias and judith and the extra bits of daniel, so u are ok in this matter.
here is more info:
http://orthodoxstudybible.com/uploads/BibleBooksChart.pdf
We also have Ps 151, used on Joyous Saturday.
poor them.
here it is, for the catholics / protestants / anyone else missing out!
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=4563162
Ps151.1
[2] My hands made a harp,
my fingers fashioned a lyre.
[3] And who will declare it to my Lord?
The Lord himself; it is he who hears.
[4] It was he who sent his messenger
and took me from my father's sheep,
and anointed me with his anointing oil.
[5] My brothers were handsome and tall,
but the Lord was not pleased with them.
[6] I went out to meet the Philistine,
and he cursed me by his idols.
[7] But I drew his own sword;
I beheaded him, and removed reproach from
the people of Israel.
oh, i forgot the catholics don't have that.
poor them.
here it is, for the catholics / protestants / anyone else missing out!
http://quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/r/rsv/rsv-idx?type=DIV1&byte=4563162
Ps151.1
[1] I was small among my brothers,
and the youngest in my father’s house;
I tended my father’s sheep.
[2] My hands made a harp,
my fingers fashioned a lyre.
[3] And who will declare it to my Lord?
The Lord himself; it is he who hears.
[4] It was he who sent his messenger
and took me from my father's sheep,
and anointed me with his anointing oil.
[5] My brothers were handsome and tall,
but the Lord was not pleased with them.
[6] I went out to meet the Philistine,
and he cursed me by his idols.
[7] But I drew his own sword;
I beheaded him, and removed reproach from
the people of Israel.
you left out verse 1, I added it above
God bless u and all of egypt.
you are very welcome here! bienvenido!
- which church to join? i am a Coptic Orthodox Christian and i love my church very much. it has much beauty and depth and i believe our teachings and traditions are good and Christ-like. we have tried to keep the Church and the Faith as our Lord Jesus gave it to His Apostles. i really believe it is orthodox and true. ofcourse we have our faults.. as a congregation we r not as tuneful or organised as other churches, but we have a lot of heart and a lovely Christian community. we r part of the Oriental Orthodox churches and we all have the same Christology and Theology and core traditions. i also think there is very little difference between us and the Eastern Orthodox Church. Although we are not in communion yet, when i enter an Eastern Orthodox church and meet Eastern Orthodox Christians i see no important differences between us.
- our fasts don't really separate us out, it is a personal thing and each person does what they are able to do with the guidance of our spiritual fathers. Even though i was brought up in the church i am still not fasting every single fast yet. we r conscious that it is the heart that matters and that fasting can help draw us closer to God but must be accompanied by charitable deeds and prayer, otherwise its just a change of diet really. Many Coptic parishioners fast the great fasts and some fast wednesdays and fridays too (in commemoration of Christ's betrayal by Judas on wednesday and His Crucifixion of friday). Monks have stricter fasting usually, with plainer foods and longer periods of abstinence from food. Not too sure about priests (probably somewhere in the middle, fasting all the fasts of the church but without the tougher fasting that the monks do).
- if u are married before the sacrament of Priesthood then you stay married as a priest. if you are not married before you have the sacrament of Priesthood then you must remain celibate. I believe this was decided at the First Ecumenical Council, where an elderly and respected bishop, St Paphnutius the Confesser who had been tortured for his faith in Christ and who had lived a celibate life advised the council not to lay the additional burden of celibacy on priests if they wanted to be married.
sorry i did not answer your other questions, i was not sure of the answers.
God bless you :)
there are beautiful old traditions of fasting in the catholic church.
follow these (you can find out about it on the internet or in libraries) and discuss it with your priest or other person in your church who loves God.
then, if this is not enough, u can think of the other orthodox fasting traditions.
mabsoota
You have surely received your information from trusted sources, but I have different information and experience. Antonio seems to seek the straight story. I'm not sure what that is now. I recommend that all Copts who were received by chrismation, pray and think deeply about seeking Orthodox Holy Baptism.
Striving to increase the degree of my fasting is beneficial in every way. I didn't think that I could live out the day without bacon and eggs for breakfast. Fasting made me learn that I'm better off in every way if I never eat another bacon or egg, etc, etc. Foul and injera, is the staff of life, and fasting.
I don't mean any offense, but I hope it will help all of us to know the full, and hopefully final "rule"/ "law" on this important issue of Holy Baptism.
Thanks for your generous answer, for all of us, to antonio.
There are not many churches, there is only one Orthodox Church. It is important to always insist on this.
Please bless my misunderstanding of your statements with an explanation of your meaning. Thank you. Please remember me when you pray.
My personal physical and spiritual aspects seem to be complementary. Striving toward Coptic fasting "rules" has greatly (far from completely) sharpened my spiritual sensitivity and alertness. As a life long observant Catholic (finally no fasting "rule") these had practically atrophied. Excuse my additional answer to a question that you didn't ask.
God grant that your inquiries serve His Will, and help all of us.
In Christ there is truly no division into Armenian, Coptic, Eritrean, Ethiopian, Indian or Syrian. These are accidental and not essential categories.
About sacraments, maybe i´m too latin, because for me the main issue about validity of sacraments is legality; a sacrament is valid when the priest in law performs the sacraments with the legal words and the appropiate materials, careless of the faith of the priest, but i also realize that those ceremonies, with that music, are unsuitable for the heart.
On the other hand, I see that in orthodoxy (apparently) there are not so much modernism not in the cathecism not in the sacraments, but i see disunity between orthodox churches. I think about fasting. but what fasting? coptic fasting, ethiopian fasting, russian fasting... I´m spanish¡¡ I mean, i´m not a lackey of other countries, so in the end i remain as i was, and I twist again to protestantism, and after to roman catholicism, and after to orthodoxy, so, at least, i think i´m a christian traditionalism, until i discover good arguments.
You need not allow something like fasting to keep you from Orthodox. Orthodoxy is a spiritual discipline, not a matter of doctrine. Different Orthodox traditions, developing in different Orthodox lands developed slight differences in practise, appropriate to their culture and history (for example, the fast of Nineveh originated in Syria, for obvious reasons). But this is not something uniform even in the Roman Catholic Church. Fasting on Fridays during lent is stricter in the U.S.A. than it is in Canada, because the bishops of those two lands made slightly different pastoral decisions for their people.
Should you adopt Coptic fasting, Ethiopian, or another? Not necessarily. You should find a priest, who is able to guide you. And that priest should set a rule for you. You may whole heartedly adopt a tradition since you are from a land that lacks a mature Orthodox tradition. Or you may not. You may never work up to fasting all the days and hours that a Copt, trained to do so from childhood is able to do. Your confessor may give you a much laxer rule, and yet it may be a greater sacrifice since you aren't trained for it. Over time, you will then be able to work up.
In time, when enough people from these lands become Orthodox, and when the grandchildren of immigrants become less attached to the homeland of their ancestors, then a consistent tradition can develop throughout each land, as has been the historic norm. In the mean time, we shouldn't feel that joining an Orthodox Church is becoming the lackey of another country. We should be grateful to those who are willing to share authentic, ancient Orthodox traditions with us in lands where we have none. Yes, there are serious problems with different traditions overlapping and operating as if they were separate. But there are historic reasons why this abnormality has arisen. If you look on the OCA website, they put it right on their homepage: http://oca.org/questions/namerica/orthodox-unity-in-north-america . This unusual situation doesn't take away from the truth of Orthodoxy, or its ability to heal you if you seek spiritual remedies from her.