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Military

Agape47
edited December 1969 in Random Issues
Hi
What is the Church view on conscription for the military versus volunteering

Comments

  • peter_saadpeter_saad
    What do you mean by volunteering?
  • Agape47
    I mean going into the military of your own free will
  • Khas.
    In the military, remember that you are ordered. If you are in the Infantry or Armour you might be ordered to kill. I have heard mixed opinions in the church, but from what I have concluded, killing in the military is ethical. One of the reasons is that you are after the enemy on the will of the state, and the enemy the same for his or her state. However, other views include the following: to confess a sin you must have consoled with the person you sinned against if you did. So if you are in the military and kill another person, you can't really console anyone because you did not know that person and you do not know his or her family. The issue here is, when you are holding that gun, or commanding that tank, and firing, are you actually killing on your own will and behalf? The state orders you to fire, doesn't that mean all the blood shed goes to the responsibility of the state head that declared the initial war? This is the issue. But for any role in the military, the same thing can be said. As an engineer repairing tanks and APC's, you''re supporting the defeat of the enemy, right? So, wouldn't that mean a regular troop and an engineer both have the same roles for helping the state achieve it's goals? Then you get mixed up with the double effect and the golden mean. It's a complex issue this military. Also, for volunteering, you are choosing to be the property of the state where they can use you to do anything, including kill, so that would put more responsibility of the blood of the enemy on your hands. However, with conscription, the state forces you to kill without choice, so there is less responsibility on the soldier and the blood goes to the supreme ruler.
    PM me for more.
    Are you planning to join the military? In my opinion go ahead if you really have thought it out well. The question, "Is it bad to be in the army as a christian?" being a christian, Is like the question, "What is the meaning of life", if one were an atheist and/or existentialist; can't really be answered.
  • geomike
    David the Prophet was in the army. St. George was in the army. Jonathan was in the army. The army isn't bad as long as it is keeping the peace in your country. It is okay as long as the purpose for the war isn't about exterminating a race of people or something of the sort.
  • qawe
    .
  • geomike
    [quote author=qawe link=topic=12835.msg151059#msg151059 date=1327492292]
    [quote author=geomike link=topic=12835.msg151048#msg151048 date=1327461418]
    David the Prophet was in the army. St. George was in the army. Jonathan was in the army. The army isn't bad as long as it is keeping the peace in your country. It is okay as long as the purpose for the war isn't about exterminating a race of people or something of the sort.


    Devils advocate:

    That sounds a bit relativist and thus Protestant, perhaps you should clarify to remove those sentiments.

    Also, this is in the wrong section(?)


    It had to be said in order to make my point more clear. I don't understand how you think it is Protestant. For example, if you were in the army in Germany in the 1940's then the things you are doing to the Jews isn't good and it isn't about keeping peace in your country.
  • Khas.
    [quote author=geomike link=topic=12835.msg151065#msg151065 date=1327507635]
    [quote author=qawe link=topic=12835.msg151059#msg151059 date=1327492292]
    [quote author=geomike link=topic=12835.msg151048#msg151048 date=1327461418]
    David the Prophet was in the army. St. George was in the army. Jonathan was in the army. The army isn't bad as long as it is keeping the peace in your country. It is okay as long as the purpose for the war isn't about exterminating a race of people or something of the sort.


    Devils advocate:

    That sounds a bit relativist and thus Protestant, perhaps you should clarify to remove those sentiments.

    Also, this is in the wrong section(?)


    It had to be said in order to make my point more clear. I don't understand how you think it is Protestant. For example, if you were in the army in Germany in the 1940's then the things you are doing to the Jews isn't good and it isn't about keeping peace in your country.

    That's conscription, would it be a sin?
  • drilago99drilago99
    [quote author=Khas. link=topic=12835.msg151078#msg151078 date=1327524210]
    [quote author=geomike link=topic=12835.msg151065#msg151065 date=1327507635]
    [quote author=qawe link=topic=12835.msg151059#msg151059 date=1327492292]
    [quote author=geomike link=topic=12835.msg151048#msg151048 date=1327461418]
    David the Prophet was in the army. St. George was in the army. Jonathan was in the army. The army isn't bad as long as it is keeping the peace in your country. It is okay as long as the purpose for the war isn't about exterminating a race of people or something of the sort.


    Devils advocate:

    That sounds a bit relativist and thus Protestant, perhaps you should clarify to remove those sentiments.

    Also, this is in the wrong section(?)


    It had to be said in order to make my point more clear. I don't understand how you think it is Protestant. For example, if you were in the army in Germany in the 1940's then the things you are doing to the Jews isn't good and it isn't about keeping peace in your country.

    That's conscription, would it be a sin?


    My amateur guess would be that it would be a sin. The right thing to do is, depending on the situation, yes, join the military, but when it came to killing Jews for no reason, then you must stop.
  • qawe
    .
  • geomike
    [quote author=qawe link=topic=12835.msg151100#msg151100 date=1327533745]
    [quote author=geomike link=topic=12835.msg151065#msg151065 date=1327507635]
    [quote author=qawe link=topic=12835.msg151059#msg151059 date=1327492292]
    [quote author=geomike link=topic=12835.msg151048#msg151048 date=1327461418]
    David the Prophet was in the army. St. George was in the army. Jonathan was in the army. The army isn't bad as long as it is keeping the peace in your country. It is okay as long as the purpose for the war isn't about exterminating a race of people or something of the sort.


    Devils advocate:

    That sounds a bit relativist and thus Protestant, perhaps you should clarify to remove those sentiments.

    Also, this is in the wrong section(?)


    It had to be said in order to make my point more clear. I don't understand how you think it is Protestant. For example, if you were in the army in Germany in the 1940's then the things you are doing to the Jews isn't good and it isn't about keeping peace in your country.


    Protestant in that it is relativist to the world around us. Eg everyone accepts gays, they accept gays.


    So now David the Prophet and King and Saint George are Protestant? St. Augustine says that war is justified if as long as it is to keep peace in the country. There is nothing protestant about it and it has nothing to do with it. The example you gave to analogize the situation was not relevant and did not pertain to my point. Being in the army has nothing to do with relativism.

    My point is, if it is to keep the peace in the country against enemies attacking and harming the people then it isn't wrong. Plus, being in the army doesn't mean you have to fight. There are many positions to be filled in the army such as architect, computer engineer, medical staff, etc...
  • qawe
    [quote author=geomike link=topic=12835.msg151103#msg151103 date=1327553197]
    [quote author=qawe link=topic=12835.msg151100#msg151100 date=1327533745]
    [quote author=geomike link=topic=12835.msg151065#msg151065 date=1327507635]
    [quote author=qawe link=topic=12835.msg151059#msg151059 date=1327492292]
    [quote author=geomike link=topic=12835.msg151048#msg151048 date=1327461418]
    David the Prophet was in the army. St. George was in the army. Jonathan was in the army. The army isn't bad as long as it is keeping the peace in your country. It is okay as long as the purpose for the war isn't about exterminating a race of people or something of the sort.


    Devils advocate:

    That sounds a bit relativist and thus Protestant, perhaps you should clarify to remove those sentiments.

    Also, this is in the wrong section(?)


    It had to be said in order to make my point more clear. I don't understand how you think it is Protestant. For example, if you were in the army in Germany in the 1940's then the things you are doing to the Jews isn't good and it isn't about keeping peace in your country.


    Protestant in that it is relativist to the world around us. Eg everyone accepts gays, they accept gays.


    So now David the Prophet and King and Saint George are Protestant? St. Augustine says that war is justified if as long as it is to keep peace in the country. There is nothing protestant about it and it has nothing to do with it. The example you gave to analogize the situation was not relevant and did not pertain to my point. Being in the army has nothing to do with relativism.

    My point is, if it is to keep the peace in the country against enemies attacking and harming the people then it isn't wrong. Plus, being in the army doesn't mean you have to fight. There are many positions to be filled in the army such as architect, computer engineer, medical staff, etc...


    I get you now.  You should have just said earlier for defence but not for attack! :)
  • Khas.
    [quote author=drilago99 link=topic=12835.msg151091#msg151091 date=1327529074]
    [quote author=Khas. link=topic=12835.msg151078#msg151078 date=1327524210]
    [quote author=geomike link=topic=12835.msg151065#msg151065 date=1327507635]
    [quote author=qawe link=topic=12835.msg151059#msg151059 date=1327492292]
    [quote author=geomike link=topic=12835.msg151048#msg151048 date=1327461418]
    David the Prophet was in the army. St. George was in the army. Jonathan was in the army. The army isn't bad as long as it is keeping the peace in your country. It is okay as long as the purpose for the war isn't about exterminating a race of people or something of the sort.


    Devils advocate:

    That sounds a bit relativist and thus Protestant, perhaps you should clarify to remove those sentiments.

    Also, this is in the wrong section(?)


    It had to be said in order to make my point more clear. I don't understand how you think it is Protestant. For example, if you were in the army in Germany in the 1940's then the things you are doing to the Jews isn't good and it isn't about keeping peace in your country.

    That's conscription, would it be a sin?


    My amateur guess would be that it would be a sin. The right thing to do is, depending on the situation, yes, join the military, but when it came to killing Jews for no reason, then you must stop.

    If you stop you will be SHOT. If you are shot you will DIE. If you die, even though you may have done good and confessed and was a good person, you are leaving behind your family in grief, and you lost your life by force. That doesn't sound very nice. 

    EDIT: I will be publishing a book in less than a decade from now filled with philosophical articles, religious articles and scientific articles. This will be in there. Buy my book in 10 years.
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