Why do we consider Saints like St. George and St. Marcurius Abou sefein.

Aren't whom we consider Saints like St. George, St. Marcurius Abou Sefein, Amir Tadros breaking the commandments of "Thou shall not kill", which is even mentioned by Lord Jesus when He was talking to the rich man.
Why are there Saints while the commandments is broken, I know they had no choice but they could abondon it like St. Mina. Yea they were great in martyrdom, but they can be called the same way "3alama Origanus was called", who wasn't called a Saint because of the sin he did.

Comments

  • You're talking as if they are murderers. They are doing it in God's name. Many people killed in God's name in the old testament.

    "Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a two-edged sword in their hand."
  • [quote author=Tenacpi esna onkh link=topic=12644.msg148463#msg148463 date=1323107553]
    Aren't whom we consider Saints like St. George, St. Marcurius Abou Sefein, Amir Tadros breaking the commandments of "Thou shall not kill", which is even mentioned by Lord Jesus when He was talking to the rich man.
    Why are there Saints while the commandments is broken, I know they had no choice but they could abondon it like St. Mina. Yea they were great in martyrdom, but they can be called the same way "3alama Origanus was called", who wasn't called a Saint because of the sin he did.


    I am not sure I understand your rationale and the parallelism you are drawing between the martyrs you mentioned and Origen.

    Will you elaborate?

    Thanks.
  • Soldiers are not breaking any commandments by taking the field against other armies. They are carrying out their professional duties that they were trained in, the same as a doctor who amputates an arm is not consdered a sinner.

    As a proof, they had the Holy Spirit leading them even when they took part in the wars and killed many, and the Holy Spirit does not abide in sinners nor in mass murderers. Had Filopateer been guilty of murder, he would not be able to surrender his rank and position and seek martyrdom on the eve of his victory. Such actions are not human, they are divinly inspired and shows the Holy Spirit was with him all along. 

    In any case, the topic of "Saints and War" is a lengthy one and very interesting.
  • Ok so I have another question to add on to this...@Peter_Saad you said they are doing it in the name of God...that's exactly what Muslims do! and we go and accuse them of being terrorists and crazy people and say how they don't expose that the qur'an has violent verses when in reality so does the Bible.
  • [quote author=I Believe link=topic=12644.msg148476#msg148476 date=1323112249]
    Ok so I have another question to add on to this...@Peter_Saad you said they are doing it in the name of God...that's exactly what Muslims do! and we go and accuse them of being terrorists and crazy people and say how they don't expose that the qur'an has violent verses when in reality so does the Bible.


    The martyrs who were Roman soldiers did not kill in the name of God. Rather, it was their duty to fight the enemy of the State.

    The Muslims, on the other hand, kill in the name of a false God.
  • I don't they are murderers, I mean this is sinning, if even they are forced to.
    St. Mina left the army and chose not to fight.
    I meant by Origanos that when he sinned, the church didn't consider him a saint, but a "3alama"
    so I think the same goes from Martyrs who fought in wars. it's ok to be a martyr cuz they are.
    but still, breaking a major commandments, even by force still must be counted.
  • [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12644.msg148477#msg148477 date=1323112945]
    [quote author=I Believe link=topic=12644.msg148476#msg148476 date=1323112249]
    Ok so I have another question to add on to this...@Peter_Saad you said they are doing it in the name of God...that's exactly what Muslims do! and we go and accuse them of being terrorists and crazy people and say how they don't expose that the qur'an has violent verses when in reality so does the Bible.


    The martyrs who were Roman soldiers did not kill in the name of God. Rather, it was their duty to fight the enemy of the State.

    The Muslims, on the other hand, kill in the name of a false God.


    Agreed. To add to that, 

    "Yes, the time is coming that whoever kills you will think that he offers God service." -John 16:2
  • I think the same goes from Martyrs who fought in wars. it's ok to be a martyr cuz they are.
    but still, breaking a major commandments, even by force still must be counted.

    Why is defending oneself or defending one's own country a sin?

    It is not a sin.

    Capital punishment is not a sin.

    Soldiers who carry out their duties, even if they kill the enemy in the process, is not a sin.
  • Agape,

    The soldier martyrs were not Christians when they were serving as soldiers. It's impossible for them to even enter into the Roman Empire's military without first taking the military oath of allegiance to the Emperor, which had idolatrous content. That oath had to be maintained and renewed. When they were baptized as Christians, they had to revoke the oath, and could no longer serve in the military. This is what made those soldiers get in trouble, usually as traitors, but it was for the sake of Christ that they left the Roman military.

    Here's some witnesses from the age of martyrdom in the Church on this very subject:

    Tertullian, The Crown, (11:1-4)
    Now, to come down to the very heart of this question about the soldier’s crown, should we not really first examine the right of a Christian to be in the military service at all?… Are we to believe it lawful to take an oath of allegiance to a mere human being over and above the oath of fidelity to God? Can we obey another master, having chosen Christ?… Is it likely we are permitted to carry a sword when our Lord said that he who takes the sword will perish by the sword? Will the son of peace who is forbidden to engage in a lawsuit espouse the deeds of war?…

    Yes, these and many other offenses can be observed in the discharge of military duties - offenses that must be interpreted as acts of desertion. To leave the camp of Light and enlist in the camp of darkness means going over to the enemy. To be sure, the case is different for those who are converted after they had been bound to military service. John admitted soldiers to baptism. There were also two most faithful centurions: the one whom Christ praised, and the other whom Peter instructed. But once we have embraced the faith and have been baptized, we either must immediately leave military service (as many have done)…

    +++

    From Hippolytus’ Apostolic Tradition (16:1, 8-10):
    “Enquiry should be made concerning the crafts and occupations of those who are brought to be instructed [as Catechumens]…. A soldier in command must be told not to kill people; if he is ordered so to do, he shall not carry it out. Nor should he take the oath. If he will not agree, he should be rejected. Anyone who has the power of the sword, or who is a civil magistrate wearing the purple, should desist, or he should be rejected. If a catechumen of a believer wishes to become a soldier they should be rejected, for they have despised God.”
  • Hey Bibo,

    You raise a good point but I have a question. What of St. Philopteer who was baptized at birth, and then entered the ranks? According to wikipedia (and yes, forgive me for the Wikipedia) he was elevated in rank after the death of his father (at that point the entire family had been baptized) and so, it would appear that he had to take a vow which according to Tertullian had an idolatrous basis. So, I would be happy if you could further explain that.

    Also, Saints such as St. Mina who was born a Christian, and St. George the Cappadocian.

    Looking forward to hearing your response. And please forgive my ignorance.

    ReturnOrthodoxy

  • The soldier martyrs were not Christians when they were serving as soldiers.

    There were many soldiers in the Roman Empire who were Christians: St. Boctor, St Maurice, St George, St Mina, the forty martyrs of Sebaste, Sergius and Wachus and many many others.

    It's impossible for them to even enter into the Roman Empire's military without first taking the military oath of allegiance to the Emperor, which had idolatrous content.

    Can you please provide examples of this  idolatrous content?
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