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Apostles or Disciples

peter_saadpeter_saad
edited December 1969 in Coptic Orthodox Church
So was it 12 disciples and 70 apostles? or 70 disciples and 12 apostles? Just something that's always been bothering me.  ???

Comments

  • imikhailimikhail
    disciples and apostles are used interchangeably.

    They were 12 and 72 (not 70)
  • ophadeceophadece
    I am glad that you cleared that up imikhail. I used to ask myself the same question (and just out of observation got down to the bottom of it as you said)..
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • TheGodChrist
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12430.msg145667#msg145667 date=1317845886]
    disciples and apostles are used interchangeably.

    They were 12 and 72 (not 70)


    Sometimes its 70; sometimes its 72. It depends who's counting. We know Our Lord appointed 70 Apostles in addition to the 12 Disciples. But after the Crucifixion, some fell away and some were replaced. Which is why it may have been 72 active Apostles, since the ones that fell away were eventually replaced.

    As some fell, replacements were chosen to take their place. A famous example of this would be Matthias replacing Judas after the Ascension.

    ✞✞✞
  • ophadeceophadece
    I think the Bible says that 72 came back to Jesus saying joyfully that evil spirits were cast out and obeyed them, and the Lord told them to rather be happy with their names written in the Book of Life... our hymnody says 72 as well...
    Oujai
  • TheGodChrist
    "Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, 'Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.'"
    -Luke 10:17
    New King James Version (NKJV)

    "The seventy-two returned with joy and said, 'Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.'"
    -Luke 10:17
    New International Version (NIV)

    Υπεστρεψαν δε οι εβδομηκοντα μετα χαρας λεγοντες Κυριε και τα δαιμονια υποτασσεται
    -Luke 10:17
    The Interlinear Literal Translation of the Greek New Testament


    "εβδομηκοντα" means seventy.

    A likely theory would be that it started out as 70, after the Ascension replacements were chosen, and as time passed it increased to 72.
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=12430.msg145678#msg145678 date=1317852500]
    "Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, 'Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.'"
    -Luke 10:17
    New King James Version (NKJV)

    "The seventy-two returned with joy and said, 'Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.'"
    -Luke 10:17
    New International Version (NIV)

    Υπεστρεψαν δε οι εβδομηκοντα μετα χαρας λεγοντες Κυριε και τα δαιμονια υποτασσεται
    -Luke 10:17
    The Interlinear Literal Translation of the Greek New Testament


    "εβδομηκοντα" means seventy.

    A likely theory would be that it started out as 70, after the Ascension replacements were chosen, and as time passed it increased to 72.


    Our Tradition is 72 as evidenced from our hymns and the Coptic Katamaras translation.

    The Vulgate, Jerome translation has 72 apostles.

    The 70 arose from the Masoretic translation of Genesis 10 where it lists 70 nations. This was a way of linking the sending of the chosen to the 70 existing nations.

    We hold our Church Tradition of 72.
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    While they may be used interchangeably, I don't think they should. That being said, an apostle was (and to some extent still is) a disciple and a disciple can become an apostle. So basically, the 12 Apostles were also disciples and the 70 (or 72) disciples were also apostles.

    The term apostle is derived from Koine Greek ἀπόστολος (apóstolos), meaning one who is sent forth as a messenger[1][2] in contrast to a disciple who is a "student" that learns from a "teacher".[2][3] Apostle is the Greek equivalent of the Hebrew word shaliah. Traditionally, Jesus is said to have had Twelve Apostles who spread the Gospel after his resurrection though there is also a tradition derived from the Gospel of Luke of Seventy Apostles.

    Saul of Tarsus, not one of the Twelve or the Seventy and a recent convert, claimed the title of Apostle to the Gentiles, even though other apostles actively recruited Gentiles (non Jews) and Peter's role was never restricted to just Apostle to the Jews (see also Circumcision controversy in early Christianity, Incident at Antioch, Primacy of Simon Peter, and Paul of Tarsus and Judaism), indeed traditionally the first Gentile convert is considered to be Cornelius the Centurion, who was recruited by Peter. Paul claimed a special commission from the resurrected Jesus, separate from the Great Commission given to the Twelve. Paul did not restrict the term apostle to the Twelve, referring to his mentor Barnabas and others as apostles, either because he didn't know it or resisted it.[3] This restricted usage appears in Revelation.[3][4] In modern usage, major missionaries are sometimes termed apostles, as in Saint Patrick, Apostle of Ireland.[3]

    The period of Early Christianity during the lifetimes of the apostles is called the Apostolic Age.[5] In the 2nd century, association with the apostles was esteemed as evidence of authority (later called orthodoxy). Paul's epistles were accepted as scripture (see Development of the New Testament canon), and two of the four gospels were associated with apostles, as were other New Testament works. Various Christian texts, such as the Didache and the Apostolic Constitutions, were attributed to the Twelve Apostles. Bishops traced their lines of succession back to individual apostles, who were said to have established churches across great territories. Christian bishops have traditionally claimed authority deriving, by apostolic succession, from the Twelve.[3] Early church fathers came to be associated with apostles, such as Pope Clement I with Peter the Apostle (see Apostolic Fathers). The Apostles' Creed, popular in the West, was said to have been composed by the apostles themselves.

    Source
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=✞TheGodChrist✞ link=topic=12430.msg145678#msg145678 date=1317852500]
    "Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, 'Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.'"
    -Luke 10:17
    New King James Version (NKJV)

    "The seventy-two returned with joy and said, 'Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name.'"
    -Luke 10:17
    New International Version (NIV)

    Υπεστρεψαν δε οι εβδομηκοντα μετα χαρας λεγοντες Κυριε και τα δαιμονια υποτασσεται
    -Luke 10:17
    The Interlinear Literal Translation of the Greek New Testament


    "εβδομηκοντα" means seventy.

    A likely theory would be that it started out as 70, after the Ascension replacements were chosen, and as time passed it increased to 72.


    Something interesting I came across while searching about the word seventy in Greek is the following:

    The Septuagint derives its name from Latin versio septuaginta interpretum,"translation of the seventy interpreters," (Greek: ἡ μετάφρασις τῶν ἑβδομήκοντα, hē metáphrasis tōn hebdomēkonta), "translation of the seventy ".[3][14] The title refers to a legendary account in the pseudepigraphic Letter of Aristeas of how seventy-two Jewish scholars were asked by the Greek King of Egypt Ptolemy II Philadelphus in the 3rd century BCE to translate the Torah (or Pentateuch) from Biblical Hebrew into Greek for inclusion in the Library of Alexandria.[5]

    As narrated by Philo of Alexandria, 72 Jewish translators were enlisted to complete the translation while kept in separate chambers. They all produced identical versions of the text in seventy-two days. This story underlines the fact that some Jews in antiquity wished to present the translation as authoritative.[5] A version of this legend is found in the Tractate Megillah of the Babylonian Talmud (pages 9a-9b), which identifies fifteen specific unusual translations made by the scholars. Only two of these translations are found in the extant LXX.

    Source

    So despite the word 'septaugint' meaning 'translation of the seventy' (even in Greek) there were 72 Jewish scholars.
  • TheGodChrist
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12430.msg145679#msg145679 date=1317855753]
    Our Tradition is 72 as evidenced from our hymns and the Coptic Katamaras translation.


    Our hymns, as well as our Katamarous, are not infallible. There can be mistakes. Nonetheless, the fact that these sources mention 72 disciples does not mean the sources are necessarily wrong.

    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12430.msg145679#msg145679 date=1317855753]
    The Vulgate, Jerome translation has 72 apostles.


    True, but there are many other manuscripts that say 70.

    Here is what Codex Sinaiticus says. I believe it is an Alexandrian manuscript that was found in Saint Catherine's Monastery, Mount Sinai (it is not a Coptic Orthodox Monastery).

    ϋπεϲτρεψαν δε οι εβδομηκοντα μετα χαραϲ λεγοντεϲ κε  και τα δαιμονια ϋποταϲϲεται ημι  εν τω ονοματι ϲου
    -Luke 10:17
    Codex Sinaiticus, 4th Century

    "And the seventy returned with joy, saying: Lord, even the demons are subjected to us in thy name."
    -Luke 10:17
    English Translation of Codex Sinaiticus

    "εβδομηκοντα" is mentioned again. It means 70.


    Moses the Prophet also had horns on his head according to St. Jerome's Vulgate.

    Just look at it!
    http://smarthistory.org/assets/images/New_Images/michelangelo_moses1.jpg

    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12430.msg145679#msg145679 date=1317855753]
    The 70 arose from the Masoretic translation of Genesis 10 where it lists 70 nations. This was a way of linking the sending of the chosen to the 70 existing nations.


    Yes indeed, Wikipedia does mention this. And Wikipedia is of course divinely inspired.

    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12430.msg145679#msg145679 date=1317855753]
    We hold our Church Tradition of 72.


    There is a reasonable possibility that it could also be 70.

    Here's a link with Orthodox sources:
    http://orthodoxwiki.org/Seventy_Apostles

    [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=12430.msg145693#msg145693 date=1317872642]
    Something interesting I came across while searching about the word seventy in Greek is the following:

    The Septuagint derives its name from Latin versio septuaginta interpretum,"translation of the seventy interpreters," (Greek: ἡ μετάφρασις τῶν ἑβδομήκοντα, hē metáphrasis tōn hebdomēkonta), "translation of the seventy ".[3][14] The title refers to a legendary account in the pseudepigraphic Letter of Aristeas of how seventy-two Jewish scholars were asked by the Greek King of Egypt Ptolemy II Philadelphus in the 3rd century BCE to translate the Torah (or Pentateuch) from Biblical Hebrew into Greek for inclusion in the Library of Alexandria.[5]

    As narrated by Philo of Alexandria, 72 Jewish translators were enlisted to complete the translation while kept in separate chambers. They all produced identical versions of the text in seventy-two days. This story underlines the fact that some Jews in antiquity wished to present the translation as authoritative.[5] A version of this legend is found in the Tractate Megillah of the Babylonian Talmud (pages 9a-9b), which identifies fifteen specific unusual translations made by the scholars. Only two of these translations are found in the extant LXX.

    Source

    So despite the word 'septaugint' meaning 'translation of the seventy' (even in Greek) there were 72 Jewish scholars.


    Very interesting...

    May we all be guided to the truth in love.

    ✞✞✞
  • imikhailimikhail
    We stay with our Tradition, our books and our translation. If they say it is 72 then it is 72.
  • CopticSoldierCopticSoldier
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12430.msg145700#msg145700 date=1317874574]
    We stay with out Tradition, our books and our translation. If they say it is 72 then it is 72.


    Ridiculous!!! How can we stay without tradition???
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear LoveisDivine,
    I think it was a type on imikhail's part. He meant "with our" rather than "without"
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12430.msg145724#msg145724 date=1317901628]
    Dear LoveisDivine,
    I think it was a type on imikhail's part. He meant "with our" rather than "without"
    Oujai qen `P[C


    Thanks for the correction ophadece.
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12430.msg145724#msg145724 date=1317901628]
    Dear LoveisDivine,
    I think it was a type on imikhail's part. He meant "with our" rather than "without"
    Oujai qen `P[C


    TYPO.
  • ophadeceophadece
    HEhe... I corrected imikhail's typo, and I made one... hehe... thanks Unworthy1
    Oujai
  • acoptacopt
    Here's also a verse about this question:

    "Now it came to pass in those days that He went out to the mountain to pray, and continued all night in prayer to God.  And when it was day, He called His disciples to Himself; and from them He chose twelve whom He also named apostles" (Luke 6:12-13)
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