Skip to the content
Icon of Christ
› ›

Why is it wrong..???

2

Comments

  • ophadeceophadece
    Every body does what they are comfortable with within the bounds of the rules. If we cannot do it, doesn't mean they are heavy-handed rules. It's just that we are soft. Of course Unworthy1, I'm talking about myself, I don't really know you, or anybody else...
    No, there are no designated times to sit down. You go to monasteries, you don't see a pew, and the reason simply is that people either stood up or knelt down in worship...
    Oujai
  • imikhailimikhail
    For leniency the Church allowed sitting, but the original had no sitting.
  • dzheremi
    This was a big source of anxiety for me before I attended my first Coptic liturgy (last weekend!  :)), because I knew that sitting was not the norm in Coptic churches, but also that my foot injury would require me to sit. Luckily the people were all very understanding and one of the men even came over to me at the beginning of the liturgy and said that he would prefer that I sit rather than risk hurting myself, as that's really not what worship is supposed to be about. I thanked him for his kindness, but still stood at all times when we were told to stand up for prayer, or in general when others were standing. I did not time it, but I think I spent more time standing than sitting. This is a good system, I think. Not to require anyone to endanger himself, but also not being lenient for the sake of it as you might find in other churches were sitting is the norm and comfort is expected.
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12000.msg143951#msg143951 date=1314810761]
    For leniency the Church allowed sitting, but the original had no sitting.


    I really doubt this. Christ sat around a table with his disciples during the Eucharist. I am sure the disciples/apostles continued that tradition for some time.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear Unworthy1,
    Why are you doubting many things on this thread man? Not able to come to terms of how the Coptic church is so stern in her canons. If so, then we only have ourselves to blame
    Oujai
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=12000.msg143953#msg143953 date=1314815926]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12000.msg143951#msg143951 date=1314810761]
    For leniency the Church allowed sitting, but the original had no sitting.


    I really doubt this. Christ sat around a table with his disciples during the Eucharist. I am sure the disciples/apostles continued that tradition for some time.


    Unworthy,

    There are many canons that indicate that there was no sitting. Tradition also teaches this.

    God willing I will post some of these canons shortly
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12000.msg143954#msg143954 date=1314823673]
    Dear Unworthy1,
    Why are you doubting many things on this thread man? Not able to come to terms of how the Coptic church is so stern in her canons. If so, then we only have ourselves to blame
    Oujai


    Well when I have been told that there are designated times to stand/sit and when I have seen our holy fathers and HH himself smile during the liturgy it is hard not to have some doubt about whether the things you say are really that important.
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12000.msg143958#msg143958 date=1314829390]
    [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=12000.msg143953#msg143953 date=1314815926]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12000.msg143951#msg143951 date=1314810761]
    For leniency the Church allowed sitting, but the original had no sitting.


    I really doubt this. Christ sat around a table with his disciples during the Eucharist. I am sure the disciples/apostles continued that tradition for some time.


    Unworthy,

    There are many canons that indicate that there was no sitting. Tradition also teaches this.

    God willing I will post some of these canons shortly


    You dodged the things I brought up. Are you telling me Christ and his disciples stood? Are you telling me that when they gathered together in the 1st century for the Eucharist they all stood? What evidence do you have?

  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    The comparison of the present day Church with the Passover seder at the time of Christ or even the 1st century Church is invalid. The Church has evolved over time as we no longer are under the degree of persecution we saw during that time. We no longer have to pray in homes or go underground (both literally and figuratively) to celebrate the Eucharist in catacombs. This is a non sequiter. That being said, I have found something that supports the idea that there is a time and place for sitting as well as standing:

    Apostolic Constitutions (Book II)

    Section 7. On Assembling in the Church
    An Exact Description of a Church and the Clergy, and What Things in Particular Every One is to Do in the Solemn Assemblies of the Clergy and Laity For Religious Worship.

    LVII. But be, O bishop, holy, unblameable, no striker, not soon angry, not cruel; but a builder up, a converter, apt to teach, forbearing of evil, of a gentle mind, meek, long-suffering, ready to exhort, ready to comfort, as a man of God.

    When you call an assembly of the Church as one that is the commander of a great ship, appoint the assemblies to be made with all possible skill, charging the deacons as mariners to prepare places for the brethren as for passengers, with all due care and decency. And first, let the building be long, with its head to the east, with its vestries on both sides at the east end, and so it will be like a ship. In the middle let the bishop's throne be placed, and on each side of him let the presbytery sit down; and let the deacons stand near at hand, in close and small girt garments, for they are like the mariners and managers of the ship: with regard to these, let the laity sit on the other side, with all quietness and good order. And let the women sit by themselves, they also keeping silence. In the middle, let the reader stand upon some high place: let him read the books of Moses, of Joshua the son of Nun, of the Judges, and of the Kings and of the Chronicles, and those written after the return from the captivity; and besides these, the books of Job and of Solomon, and of the sixteen prophets. But when there have been two lessons severally read, let some other person sing the hymns of David, and let the people join at the conclusions of the verses. Afterwards let our Acts be read, and the Epistles of Paul our fellow-worker, which he sent to the churches under the conduct of the Holy Spirit; and afterwards let a deacon or a presbyter read the Gospels, both those which I Matthew and John have delivered to you, and those which the fellow-workers of Paul received and left to you, Luke and Mark. And while the Gospel is read, let all the presbyters and deacons, and all the people, stand up in great silence; for it is written: "Be silent, and hear, O Israel." Deuteronomy 27:9 And again: "But stand there, and hear." Deuteronomy 5:31 In the next place, let the presbyters one by one, not all together, exhort the people, and the bishop in the last place, as being the commander. Let the porters stand at the entries of the men, and observe them. Let the deaconesses also stand at those of the women, like shipmen. For the same description and pattern was both in the tabernacle of the testimony and in the temple of God. But if any one be found sitting out of his place, let him be rebuked by the deacon, as a manager of the foreship, and be removed into the place proper for him; for the Church is not only like a ship, but also like a sheepfold. For as the shepherds place all the brute creatures distinctly, I mean goats and sheep, according to their kind and age, and still every one runs together, like to his like; so is it to be in the Church. Let the young persons sit by themselves, if there be a place for them; if not, let them stand upright. But let those that are already stricken in years sit in order. For the children which stand, let their fathers and mothers take them to them. Let the younger women also sit by themselves, if there be a place for them; but if there be not, let them stand behind the women. Let those women which are married, and have children, be placed by themselves; but let the virgins, and the widows, and the elder women, stand or sit before all the rest; and let the deacon be the disposer of the places, that every one of those that comes in may go to his proper place, and may not sit at the entrance. In like manner, let the deacon oversee the people, that nobody may whisper, nor slumber, nor laugh, nor nod; for all ought in the church to stand wisely, and soberly, and attentively, having their attention fixed upon the word of the Lord. After this, let all rise up with one consent, and looking towards the east, after the catechumens and penitents are gone out, pray to God eastward, who ascended up to the heaven of heavens to the east; remembering also the ancient situation of paradise in the east, from whence the first man, when he had yielded to the persuasion of the serpent, and disobeyed the command of God, was expelled. As to the deacons, after the prayer is over, let some of them attend upon the oblation of the Eucharist, ministering to the Lord's body with fear. Let others of them watch the multitude, and keep them silent. But let that deacon who is at the high priest's hand say to the people, Let no one have any quarrel against another; let no one come in hypocrisy. Then let the men give the men, and the women give the women, the Lord's kiss. But let no one do it with deceit, as Judas betrayed the Lord with a kiss. After this let the deacon pray for the whole Church, for the whole world, and the several parts of it, and the fruits of it; for the priests and the rulers, for the high priest and the king, and the peace of the universe. After this let the high priest pray for peace upon the people, and bless them, as Moses commanded the priests to bless the people, in these words: "The Lord bless you, and keep you: the Lord make His face to shine upon you, and give you peace." Let the bishop pray for the people, and say: "Save Your people, O Lord, and bless Your inheritance, which You have obtained with the precious blood of Your Christ, and hast called a royal priesthood, and an holy nation." After this let the sacrifice follow, the people standing, and praying silently; and when the oblation has been made, let every rank by itself partake of the Lord's body and precious blood in order, and approach with reverence and holy fear, as to the body of their king. Let the women approach with their heads covered, as is becoming the order of women; but let the door be watched, lest any unbeliever, or one not yet initiated, come in.

    Source

  • ophadeceophadece
    Very good point Unworthy1.
    Oujai
  • imikhailimikhail
    [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=12000.msg143967#msg143967 date=1314835574]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12000.msg143958#msg143958 date=1314829390]
    [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=12000.msg143953#msg143953 date=1314815926]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12000.msg143951#msg143951 date=1314810761]
    For leniency the Church allowed sitting, but the original had no sitting.


    I really doubt this. Christ sat around a table with his disciples during the Eucharist. I am sure the disciples/apostles continued that tradition for some time.


    Unworthy,

    There are many canons that indicate that there was no sitting. Tradition also teaches this.

    God willing I will post some of these canons shortly


    You dodged the things I brought up. Are you telling me Christ and his disciples stood? Are you telling me that when they gathered together in the 1st century for the Eucharist they all stood? What evidence do you have?




    Unworthy,

    You are confusing a meal eaten by the disciples and time of prayer....

    At time of prayer we are supposed to stand and there are lots of commands throughout the liturgy the deacon say to alert those sitting......

    The only time sitting is permitted is during the reading of the epistles . but the original rite was for people to stand during the reading of the scriptures as is clear in the Old and New Testament...
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12000.msg143985#msg143985 date=1314847992]
    Very good point Unworthy1.
    Oujai


    Which one? Not that I make many good points, but I don't know what you are referring to. . .
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12000.msg143987#msg143987 date=1314849659]
    [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=12000.msg143967#msg143967 date=1314835574]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12000.msg143958#msg143958 date=1314829390]
    [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=12000.msg143953#msg143953 date=1314815926]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12000.msg143951#msg143951 date=1314810761]
    For leniency the Church allowed sitting, but the original had no sitting.


    I really doubt this. Christ sat around a table with his disciples during the Eucharist. I am sure the disciples/apostles continued that tradition for some time.


    Unworthy,

    There are many canons that indicate that there was no sitting. Tradition also teaches this.

    God willing I will post some of these canons shortly


    You dodged the things I brought up. Are you telling me Christ and his disciples stood? Are you telling me that when they gathered together in the 1st century for the Eucharist they all stood? What evidence do you have?




    Unworthy,

    You are confusing a meal eaten by the disciples and time of prayer....

    At time of prayer we are supposed to stand and there are lots of commands throughout the liturgy the deacon say to alert those sitting......

    The only time sitting is permitted is during the reading of the epistles . but the original rite was for people to stand during the reading of the scriptures as is clear in the Old and New Testament...
    (emphasis mine)

    Just a meal?!  :o
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear Unworthy1,
    I'm not very good at using quotes, especially when I'm using the mobile. I was referring to you questioning the points I made earlier by virtue of your observations. However, dare I say you should also question the elders' behaviours at times including even pope Shenouda the third.
    Oujai
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12000.msg143998#msg143998 date=1314854775]
    However, dare I say you should also question the elders' behaviours at times including even pope Shenouda the third.
    Oujai


    SERIOUSLY?! You complain about people not showing you any respect on this forum, and yet you do not respect our heirarchs?!
  • irishpilgrimirishpilgrim
    The original topic of this discussion was: “Why is it wrong to chew gum in church?” I’ve been away for a while, so I just read through the discussion. My initial response has not been raised, so I will share it.

    Those who chew gum in public, place themselves in company with the generally inconsiderate slobs who obviously dispose of their gum in obnoxious ways. If gum chewing is not rigidly prohibited in your church, or other public space, for instance your school, library or other place of public assembly, you will find that these slobs have hidden their destructive used cud in all types of  hidden crevices, etc. Look under the pews, chairs, tables, candle stands, altar overhangs, behind the deacon doorpost curtains, altar closet doors and drawers, etc. Even more destructive and annoying are the effects of used gum which has been thrown down on the grass, street, walkways, etc at the church entrances (or even on the church building floors) to become stuck to the sole of someone’s shoe and tracked onto the church floor or carpet. This and tracked dog and animal feces are similarly very unpleasant and difficult to remove and clean. This is particularly troublesome in churches, like the U.S. Coptic Churches I have attended, where street shoes are worn into the sanctuary.  Ask the church’s cleaning crew about their experiences with gum chewers’ debis.

    When you see someone publically chewing gum, they are advertising the poisoning their own bodies with its addictive dangerous commercial chemical ingredients and possibly silently considering where to secretly dispose of the fresh used glue ball.

    Some, like Cephas, implie to be spiritually pure and non-judgmental, but don’t their unsupported challenged slanders belie their other pius pontifications? 
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear Cephas,
    Of course respect has to be due at all times, but respect doesn't mean to follow blindly or to turn a blind eye to some things which are not acceptable even from the pope. We don't believe in the "divinity" of popes - they are humans, they make mistakes, and we should have the spirit of discernship.
    Dear irishpilgrim,
    We don't teach any thing called "strict prohibition" basing the teaching on St. Paul's epistles and his sayings of nothing is prohibited but can be impure (sorry for my loose translation). However, as you would have seen from the previous posts, there are strict churchly canons, but every body from the individual themselves, to their parents, to church authorities need to discipline themselves more steadfastly and heavy-handedly and these things may not happen again... but for many reasons including fear of offending, tolerance, and fear of the other person, they are just ignored...
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12000.msg144049#msg144049 date=1314910149]
    Dear Cephas,
    Of course respect has to be due at all times, but respect doesn't mean to follow blindly or to turn a blind eye to some things which are not acceptable even from the pope. We don't believe in the "divinity" of popes - they are humans, they make mistakes, and we should have the spirit of discernship.
    Dear irishpilgrim,
    We don't teach any thing called "strict prohibition" basing the teaching on St. Paul's epistles and his sayings of nothing is prohibited but can be impure (sorry for my loose translation). However, as you would have seen from the previous posts, there are strict churchly canons, but every body from the individual themselves, to their parents, to church authorities need to discipline themselves more steadfastly and heavy-handedly and these things may not happen again... but for many reasons including fear of offending, tolerance, and fear of the other person, they are just ignored...
    Oujai qen `P[C


    Or another reason they are ignored is simply because they don't matter. I could just envision you attacking Christ as He and His disciples ate with unclean hands.
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12000.msg144049#msg144049 date=1314910149]
    Dear Cephas,
    Of course respect has to be due at all times, but respect doesn't mean to follow blindly or to turn a blind eye to some things which are not acceptable even from the pope. We don't believe in the "divinity" of popes - they are humans, they make mistakes, and we should have the spirit of discernship.
    Oujai qen `P[C


    The Apostle John teaches us to test the spirits to see if they are of God (cf. 1 John 4:2-3). This is regarding matters of doctrine and/or dogma. So if our hierarchs are teaching anything contrary to the Gospel, then we should exercise our 'spirit of discernment'. Not in trivial matters such as 'smiling' during the Divine Liturgy. Our hierarchs have lived the faith far longer than we have, and have received their appointment from God. If you think you need to use your 'spirit of discernment' in this silly matter, than your 'spirit' is defunct.
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12000.msg143958#msg143958 date=1314829390]
    [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=12000.msg143953#msg143953 date=1314815926]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=12000.msg143951#msg143951 date=1314810761]
    For leniency the Church allowed sitting, but the original had no sitting.


    I really doubt this. Christ sat around a table with his disciples during the Eucharist. I am sure the disciples/apostles continued that tradition for some time.


    Unworthy,

    There are many canons that indicate that there was no sitting. Tradition also teaches this.

    God willing I will post some of these canons shortly


    I still await your references. . .

    Also, you never fully addressed the first celebration of the Eucharist with the disciples and how they all sat. . .
  • ophadeceophadece
    Dear Unworthy1,
    I don't know if I am so vague in giving opinions, or if I come on too strongly, but certainly either case doesn't help. I don't think I alluded to judging our forefathers including the apostles and disciples by any means, but maybe my undertone sounds like a pharisee. Bottom line is no one is infallible except God.
    Dear Cephas,
    Thanks first for correcting the reference I quoted from the Bible and second my English spelling. Someone's trivial matters can be serious issues for another person including clapping hands inside the church if you see what I mean. I am sure you may know the monk who was being whitened off his sins, and the more that was, the deeper he went into his past sins, and cried for days on end when he remembered picking us a cucumber plant off the ground having fallen off a grocer's wheelbarrow.
    Oujai
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12000.msg144105#msg144105 date=1314947998]
    Dear Cephas,
    Thanks first for correcting the reference I quoted from the Bible and second my English spelling. Someone's trivial matters can be serious issues for another person including clapping hands inside the church if you see what I mean.

    If hand clapping during worship is a problem for you, do not go to Africa. Check out this video or this video (though you may find them disturbing). I have never heard of anyone being scandalized or stumbling or falling into sin as a result of a hierarch smiling during a Liturgy or any other such nonsense. Where I could see a problem is if they taught false doctrines. THEN there's a problem and a scandal and a serious one at that. But what you are suggesting goes so far off the deep end that it has entered into the realm of utter lunacy.

    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12000.msg144105#msg144105 date=1314947998]I am sure you may know the monk who was being whitened off his sins, and the more that was, the deeper he went into his past sins, and cried for days on end when he remembered picking us a cucumber plant off the ground having fallen off a grocer's wheelbarrow.
    Oujai


    The first part of your 'reference' is about St. Moses the Strong. What exactly does that have to do with anything related to this thread?
  • ophadeceophadece
    I am not sure if you are looking for answers Cephas as much as you are looking to instigate an endless debate. Maybe my English is too difficult for you to understand for some reasons, but I am not suggesting anything. There are canons that you fail to believe in, and there are personal opinions that I clearly stated in addition to that.
    If you want me to clarify anything in particular you may of course do so again, but I really don't think that is the aim of your answering my posts.
    Oujai qen `P[C
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    What are these mysterious canons you keep referring to? If you have 'canons' that state that there should be no smiling of hand clapping, produce them. I have already referenced the Apostolic Constitutions (c. 400AD) in an earlier post and they make not mention of smiling or hand clapping (though they do mention laughing, which goes without saying. Liturgy is a solemn service (though not as solemn as a funeral) not a comedy club).

    Further, here are the canons of the Apostles:

    The Ecclesiastical Canons of the Same Holy Apostles.

    1. Let a bishop be ordained by two or three bishops.
    2. A presbyter by one bishop, as also a deacon, and the rest of the clergy.
    3. If any bishop or presbyter, otherwise than our Lord has ordained concerning the sacrifice, offer other things at the altar of God, as honey, milk, or strong beer instead of wine, any necessaries, or birds, or animals, or pulse, otherwise than is ordained, let him be deprived; excepting grains of new grain, or ears of wheat, or bunches of grapes in their season.
    4. For it is not lawful to offer anything besides these at the altar, and oil for the holy lamp, and incense in the time of the divine oblation.
    5. But let all other fruits be sent to the house of the bishop, as first-fruits to him and to the presbyters, but not to the altar. Now it is plain that the bishop and presbyters are to divide them to the deacons and to the rest of the clergy.
    6. Let not a bishop, a priest, or a deacon cast off his own wife under pretence of piety; but if he does cast her off, let him be suspended. If he go on in it, let him be deprived.
    7. Let not a bishop, a priest, or deacon undertake the cares of this world; but if he do, let him be deprived.
    8. If any bishop, or presbyter, or deacon shall celebrate the holiday of the passover before the vernal equinox with the Jews, let him be deprived.
    9. If any bishop, or presbyter, or deacon, or any one of the catalogue of the priesthood, when the oblation is over, does not communicate, let him give his reason; and if it be just, let him be forgiven; but if he does not do it, let him be suspended, as becoming the cause of damage to the people, and occasioning a suspicion against him that offered, as of one that did not rightly offer.
    10. All those of the faithful that enter into the holy church of God, and hear the sacred Scriptures, but do not stay during prayer and the holy communion, must be suspended, as causing disorder in the church.
    11. If any one, even in the house, prays with a person excommunicate, let him also be suspended.
    12. If any clergyman prays with one deprived as with a clergyman, let himself also be deprived.
    13. If any clergyman or layman who is suspended, or ought not to be received, goes away, and is received in another city without commendatory letters, let both those who received him and he that was received be suspended. But if he be already suspended, let his suspension be lengthened, as lying to and deceiving the Church of God.
    14. A bishop ought not to leave his own parish and leap to another, although the multitude should compel him, unless there be some good reason forcing him to do this, as that he can contribute much greater profit to the people of the new parish by the word of piety; but this is not to be settled by himself, but by the judgment of many bishops, and very great supplication.
    15. If any presbyter or deacon, or any one of the catalogue of the clergy, leaves his own parish and goes to another, and, entirely removing himself, continues in that other parish without the consent of his own bishop, him we command no longer to go on in his ministry, especially in case his bishop calls upon him to return, and he does not obey, but continues in his disorder. However, let him communicate there as a layman.
    16. But if the bishop with whom they are undervalues the deprivation decreed against them, and receives them as clergymen, let him be suspended as a teacher of disorder.
    17. He who has been twice married after his baptism, or has had a concubine, cannot be made a bishop, or presbyter, or deacon, or indeed any one of the sacerdotal catalogue.
    18. He who has taken a widow, or a divorced woman, or an harlot, or a servant, or one belonging to the theatre, cannot be either a bishop, priest, or deacon, or indeed any one of the sacerdotal catalogue.
    19. He who has married two sisters, or his brother's or sister's daughter, cannot be a clergyman.
    20. Let a clergyman who becomes a surety be deprived.
    21. Let an eunuch, if he be such by the injury of men, or his virilia were taken away in the persecution, or he was born such, and yet is worthy of episcopacy, be made a bishop.
    22. Let not him who has disabled himself be made a clergyman; for he is a self-murderer, and an enemy to the creation of God.
    23. If any one who is of the clergy disables himself, let him be deprived, for he is a murderer of himself.
    24. Let a layman who disables himself be separated for three years, for he lays a snare for his own life.
    25. Let a bishop, or presbyter, or deacon who is taken in fornication, or perjury, or stealing, be deprived, but not suspended; for the Scripture says: "You shall not avenge twice for the same crime by affliction."
    26. In like manner also as to the rest of the clergy.
    27. Of those who come into the clergy unmarried, we permit only the readers and singers, if they have a mind, to marry afterward.
    28. We command that a bishop, or presbyter, or deacon who strikes the faithful that offend, or the unbelievers who do wickedly, and thinks to terrify them by such means, be deprived, for our Lord has nowhere taught us such things. On the contrary, "when Himself was stricken, He did not strike again; when He was reviled, He reviled not again; when He suffered, He threatened not."
    29. If any bishop, or presbyter, or deacon who is deprived justly for manifest crimes, does venture to meddle with that ministration which was once entrusted to him, let the same person be entirely cut off from the Church.
    30. If any bishop obtains that dignity by money, or even a presbyter or deacon, let him and the person that ordained him be deprived; and let him be entirely cut off from communion, as Simon Magus was by me Peter.
    31. If any bishop makes use of the rulers of this world, and by their means obtains to be a bishop of a church, let him be deprived and suspended, and all that communicate with him.
    32. If any presbyter despises his own bishop, and assembles separately, and fixes another altar, when he has nothing to condemn in his bishop either as to piety or righteousness, let him be deprived as an ambitious person; for he is a tyrant, and the rest of the clergy, whoever join themselves to him. And let the laity be suspended. But let these things be done after one, and a second, or even a third admonition from the bishop.
    33. If any presbyter or deacon be put under suspension by his bishop, it is not lawful for any other to receive him, but for him only who put him under suspension, unless it happens that he who put him under suspension die.
    34. Do not receive any stranger, whether bishop, or presbyter, or deacon, without commendatory letters; and when such are offered, let them be examined. And if they be preachers of piety, let them be received; but if not, supply their wants, but do not receive them to communion: for many things are done by surprise.
    35. The bishops of every country ought to know who is the chief among them, and to esteem him as their head, and not to do any great thing without his consent; but every one to manage only the affairs that belong to his own parish, and the places subject to it. But let him not do anything without the consent of all; for it is by this means there will be unanimity, and God will be glorified by Christ, in the Holy Spirit.
    36. A bishop must not venture to ordain out of his own bounds for cities or countries that are not subject to him. But if he be convicted of having done so without the consent of such as governed those cities or countries, let him be deprived, both the bishop himself and those whom he has ordained.
    37. If any bishop that is ordained does not undertake his office, nor take care of the people committed to him, let him be suspended until he do undertake it; and in the like manner a presbyter and a deacon. But if he goes, and is not received, not because of the want of his own consent, but because of the ill temper of the people, let him continue bishop; but let the clergy of that city be suspended, because they have not taught that disobedient people better.
    38. Let a synod of bishops be held twice in the year, and let them ask one another the doctrines of piety; and let them determine the ecclesiastical disputes that happen— once in the fourth week of Pentecost, and again on the twelfth of the month Hyperberetæus.
    39. Let the bishop have the care of ecclesiastical revenues, and administer them as in the presence of God. But it is not lawful for him to appropriate any part of them to himself, or to give the things of God to his own kindred. But if they be poor, let him support them as poor; but let him not, under such pretences, alienate the revenues of the Church.
    40. Let not the presbyters and deacons do anything without the consent of the bishop, for it is he who is entrusted with the people of the Lord, and will be required to give an account of their souls. Let the proper goods of the bishop, if he has any, and those belonging to the Lord, be openly distinguished, that he may have power when he dies to leave his own goods as he pleases, and to whom he pleases; that, under pretence of the ecclesiastical revenues, the bishop's own may not come short, who sometimes has a wife and children, or kinsfolk, or servants. For this is just before God and men, that neither the Church suffer any loss by the not knowing which revenues are the bishop's own, nor his kindred, under pretence of the Church, be undone, or his relations fall into lawsuits, and so his death be liable to reproach.

    cont...

    Source
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    cont…
    41. We command that the bishop have power over the goods of the Church; for if he be entrusted with the precious souls of men, much more ought he to give directions about goods, that they all be distributed to those in want, according to his authority, by the presbyters and deacons, and be used for their support with the fear of God, and with all reverence. He is also to partake of those things he wants, if he does want them, for his necessary occasions, and those of the brethren who live with him, that they may not by any means be in straits: for the law of God appointed that those who waited at the altar should be maintained by the altar; since not so much as a soldier does at any time bear arms against the enemies at his own charges.
    42. Let a bishop, or presbyter, or deacon who indulges himself in dice or drinking, either leave off those practices, or let him be deprived.
    43. If a sub-deacon, a reader, or a singer does the like, either let him leave off, or let him be suspended; and so for one of the laity.
    44. Let a bishop, or presbyter, or deacon who requires usury of those he lends to, either leave off to do so, or let him be deprived.
    45. Let a bishop, or presbyter, or deacon who only prays with heretics, be suspended; but if he also permit them to perform any part of the office of a clergyman, let him be deprived.
    46. We command that a bishop, or presbyter, or deacon who receives the baptism, or the sacrifice of heretics, be deprived: "For what agreement is there between Christ and Belial? Or what part has a believer with an infidel?"
    47. If a bishop or presbyter rebaptizes him who has had true baptism, or does not baptize him who is polluted by the ungodly, let him be deprived, as ridiculing the cross and the death of the Lord, and not distinguishing between real priests and counterfeit ones.
    48. If a layman divorces his own wife, and takes another, or one divorced by another, let him be suspended.
    49. If any bishop or presbyter does not baptize according to the Lord's constitution, into the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, but into three beings without beginning, or into three Sons, or three Comforters, let him be deprived.
    50. If any bishop or presbyter does not perform the three immersions of the one admission, but one immersion, which is given into the death of Christ, let him be deprived; for the Lord did not say, "Baptize into my death," but, "Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." Therefore, O bishops, baptize thrice into one Father, and Son, and Holy Ghost, according to the will of Christ, and our constitution by the Spirit.
    51. If any bishop, or presbyter, or deacon, or indeed any one of the sacerdotal catalogue, abstains from marriage, flesh, and wine, not for his own exercise, but because he abominates these things, forgetting that "all things were very good," Genesis 1:31 and that "God made man male and female," Genesis 1:26 and blasphemously abuses the creation, either let him reform, or let him be deprived, and be cast out of the Church; and the same for one of the laity.
    52. If any bishop or presbyter does not receive him that returns from his sin, but rejects him, let him be deprived; because he grieves Christ, who says, "There is joy in heaven over one sinner that repents." Luke 15:7
    53. If any bishop, or presbyter, or deacon does not on festival days partake of flesh or wine, let him be deprived, as "having a seared conscience," 1 Timothy 4:2 and becoming a cause of scandal to many.
    54. If any one of the clergy be taken eating in a tavern, let him be suspended, excepting when he is forced to bait at an inn upon the road.
    55. If any one of the clergy abuses his bishop unjustly, let him be deprived; for says the Scripture, "You shall not speak evil of the ruler of your people." Exodus 22:28
    56. If any one of the clergy abuses a presbyter or a deacon, let him be separated.
    57. If any one of the clergy mocks at a lame, a deaf, or a blind man, or at one maimed in his feet, let him be suspended; and the like for the laity.
    58. Let a bishop or presbyter who takes no care of the clergy or people, and does not instruct them in piety, be separated; and if he continues in his negligence, let him be deprived.
    59. If any bishop or presbyter, when any one of the clergy is in want, does not supply his necessity, let him be suspended; and if he continues in it, let him be deprived, as having killed his brother.
    60. If any one publicly reads in the Church the spurious books of the ungodly, as if they were holy, to the destruction of the people and of the clergy, let him be deprived.
    61. If there be an accusation against a Christian for fornication, or adultery, or any other forbidden action, and he be convicted, let him not be promoted into the clergy.
    62. If any one of the clergy for fear of men, as of a Jew, or a Gentile, or an heretic, shall deny the name of Christ, let him be suspended; but if he deny the name of a clergyman, let him be deprived; but when he repents, let him be received as one of the laity.
    63. If any bishop, or presbyter, or deacon, or indeed any one of the sacerdotal catalogue, eats flesh with the blood of its life, or that which is torn by beasts, or which died of itself, let him be deprived; for this the law itself has forbidden. But if he be one of the laity, let him be suspended.
    64. If any one of the clergy be found to fast on the Lord's day, or on the Sabbath day, excepting one only, let him be deprived; but if he be one of the laity, let him be suspended.
    65. If any one, either of the clergy or laity, enters into a synagogue of the Jews or heretics to pray, let him be deprived and suspended.
    66. If any one of the clergy strikes one in a quarrel, and kills him by that one stroke, let him be deprived, on account of his rashness; but if he be one of the laity, let him be suspended.
    67. If any one has offered violence to a virgin not betrothed, and keeps her, let him be suspended. But it is not lawful for him to take another to wife; but he must retain her whom he has chosen, although she be poor.
    68. If any bishop, or presbyter, or deacon, receives a second ordination from any one, let him be deprived, and the person who ordained him, unless he can show that his former ordination was from the heretics; for those that are either baptized or ordained by such as these, can be neither Christians nor clergymen.
    69. If any bishop, or presbyter, or deacon, or reader, or singer, does not fast the fast of forty days, or the fourth day of the week, and the day of the Preparation, let him be deprived, except he be hindered by weakness of body. But if he be one of the laity, let him be suspended.
    70. If any bishop, or any other of the clergy, fasts with the Jews, or keeps the festivals with them, or accepts of the presents from their festivals, as unleavened bread or some such thing, let him be deprived; but if he be one of the laity, let him be suspended.
    71. If any Christian carries oil into an heathen temple, or into a synagogue of the Jews, or lights up lamps in their festivals, let him be suspended.
    72. If any one, either of the clergy or laity, takes away from the holy Church an honeycomb, or oil, let him be suspended, and let him add the fifth part to that which he took away.
    73. A vessel of silver, or gold, or linen, which is sanctified, let no one appropriate to his own use, for it is unjust; but if any one be caught, let him be punished with suspension.
    74. If a bishop be accused of any crime by credible and faithful persons, it is necessary that he be cited by the bishops; and if he comes and makes his apology, and yet is convicted, let his punishment be determined. But if, when he is cited, he does not obey, let him be cited a second time, by two bishops sent to him. But if even then he despises them, and will not come, let the synod pass what sentence they please against him, that he may not appear to gain advantage by avoiding their judgment.
    75. Do not receive an heretic in a testimony against a bishop; nor a Christian if he be single. For the law says, "In the mouth of two or three witnesses every word shall be established."
    76. A bishop must not gratify his brother, or his son, or any other kinsman, with the episcopal dignity, or ordain whom he pleases; for it is not just to make heirs to episcopacy, and to gratify human affections in divine matters. For we must not put the Church of God under the laws of inheritance; but if any one shall do so, let his ordination be invalid, and let him be punished with suspension.
    77. If any one be maimed in an eye, or lame of his leg, but is worthy of the episcopal dignity, let him be made a bishop; for it is not a blemish of the body that can defile him, but the pollution of the soul.
    78. But if he be deaf and blind, let him not be made a bishop; not as being a defiled person, but that the ecclesiastical affairs may not be hindered.
    79. If any one has a demon, let him not be made one of the clergy. Nay, let him not pray with the faithful; but when he is cleansed, let him be received; and if he be worthy, let him be ordained.
    80. It is not right to ordain him bishop presently who is just come in from the Gentiles, and baptized; or from a wicked mode of life: for it is unjust that he who has not yet afforded any trial of himself should be a teacher of others, unless it anywhere happens by divine grace.
    81. We have said that a bishop ought not to let himself into public administrations, but to attend on all opportunities upon the necessary affairs of the Church. Either therefore let him agree not to do so, or let him be deprived. For, "no one can serve two masters," Matthew 6:24 according to the Lord's admonition.
    82. We do not permit servants to be ordained into the clergy without their masters' consent; for this would grieve those that owned them. For such a practice would occasion the subversion of families. But if at any time a servant appears worthy to be ordained into an high office, such as our Onesimus appeared to be, and if his master allows of it, and gives him his freedom, and dismisses him from his house, let him be ordained.
    83. Let a bishop, or presbyter, or deacon, who goes to the army, and desires to retain both the Roman government and the sacerdotal administration, be deprived. For "the things of Cæsar belong to Cæsar, and the things of God to God."
    84. Whosoever shall abuse the king or the governor unjustly, let him suffer punishment; and if he be a clergyman, let him be deprived; but if he be a layman, let him be suspended.
    85. Let the following books be esteemed venerable and holy by you, both of the clergy and laity. Of the Old Covenant: the five books of Moses— Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy; one of Joshua the son of Nun, one of the Judges, one of Ruth, four of the Kings, two of the Chronicles, two of Ezra, one of Esther, one of Judith, three of the Maccabees, one of Job, one hundred and fifty psalms; three books of Solomon— Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and the Song of Songs; sixteen prophets. And besides these, take care that your young persons learn the Wisdom of the very learned Sirach. But our sacred books, that is, those of the New Covenant, are these: the four Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John; the fourteen Epistles of Paul; two Epistles of Peter, three of John, one of James, one of Jude; two Epistles of Clement; and the Constitutions dedicated to you the bishops by me Clement, in eight books; which it is not fit to publish before all, because of the mysteries contained in them; and the Acts of us the Apostles.

    Let these canonical rules be established by us for you, O you bishops; and if you continue to observe them, you shall be saved, and shall have peace; but if you be disobedient, you shall be punished, and have everlasting war one with another, and undergo a penalty suitable to your disobedience.

    Source


    Show me where, in those canons, it says anything about smiling or hand clapping. You have only referenced the introduction of a deacon service book. That is not a canon. I'm not so sure you even know what a canon is. Here is the definition:

    Canon law is the body of laws and regulations made or adopted by ecclesiastical authority, for the government of the Christian organization and its members. It is the internal ecclesiastical law governing the Catholic Church (both Latin Rite and Eastern Catholic Churches), the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox churches, and the Anglican Communion of churches.[1] The way that such church law is legislated, interpreted and at times adjudicated varies widely among these three bodies of churches. In all three traditions, a canon was initially a rule adopted by a council; these canons formed the foundation of canon law.

    Source

    Canon law within the context of the Orthodox Church:

    The Greek-speaking Orthodox have collected canons and commentaries upon them in a work known as the Pēdálion (Greek: Πηδάλιον, "Rudder"), so named because it is meant to "steer" the Church. The Orthodox Christian tradition in general treats its canons more as guidelines than as laws, the bishops adjusting them to cultural and other local circumstances. Some Orthodox canon scholars point out that, had the Ecumenical Councils (which deliberated in Greek) meant for the canons to be used as laws, they would have called them nómoi/νόμοι (laws) rather than kanónes/κανόνες (rules), but almost all Orthodox conform to them. The dogmatic decisions of the Councils, though, are to be obeyed rather than to be treated as guidelines, since they are essential for the Church's unity.

    Source
  • ophadeceophadece
    DEar Cephas,
    I hope you didn't forget about verbal traditions.
    Oujai
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehomt,

    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12000.msg144192#msg144192 date=1315085476]
    DEar Cephas,
    I hope you didn't forget about verbal traditions.
    Oujai


    Well isn't that convenient. You have no written evidence so you cry, 'FOUL! ORAL TRADITION!' Unfortunately for you, it doesn't work that way. As you can see from the Apostolic Constitutions and the Ecumenical Councils, canons are, by default, written down. If you're saying something is in the canons, then there has to be written evidence of it. Otherwise, it's called heresay. Oral tradition only applies to doctrines and dogma (which, for the record, have been written down in the writings of the Fathers and the Ecumenical Councils). The evidence that smiling and hand clapping are not against these imaginary canons of yours can be found in every Orthodox Church. Laymen and clergymen alike smile during liturgy (it is a joyful time afterall). The Orthodox Churches in Africa not only smile but clap (as the videos I have linked to you illustrate) as Orthodoxy is about faith and doctrine and welcomes the incorporation of each cultures traditions and practices. So what it boils down to is that the 'Canon of Ophadece' states that there should be no clapping or smiling, not the Canons of the Orthodox Church. So, in the end, no one should really pay heed to the 'Canon of Ophadece' since it is only in the mind of one man.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Ok, fair enough. I wonder though what's "heresay" you were referring to. Do you mean "hearsay"?
    Oujai
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12000.msg144204#msg144204 date=1315115977]
    Ok, fair enough. I wonder though what's "heresay" you were referring to. Do you mean "hearsay"?
    Oujai


    How embarrassing! Once again, you take it upon yourself to correct the spelling of another and yet are unable to form proper sentences.  Truly sad. Here, let me fix that for you:


    OK, fair enough. I wonder though, what "heresay" are you referring to? Did you mean "hearsay"?

    See the difference?

    Proper English:


    OK, fair enough. I wonder though, what "heresay" are you referring to? Did you mean "hearsay"?

    Very Very Very Very Poor FOB English:
    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=12000.msg144204#msg144204 date=1315115977]
    Ok, fair enough. I wonder though what's "heresay" you were referring to. Do you mean "hearsay"?
    Oujai


    Here's another idiom for you: People who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.
  • ophadeceophadece
    Cephas, seriously my dear there's something wrong in how you view me. I can see you are becoming so paranoid about me. I wonder what kind of stress I put you under. God bless you man, and hope I haven't brought you to the end of your tether..
    Oujai
Sign In or Register to comment.