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Comments
[quote author=epiphania link=topic=9585.msg142190#msg142190 date=1311964073]
we're all 'blameless' as long as we are covered by the blood of Christ.
Sorry, but that just made me shudder. It sounds almost 'Protestant' in nature.
[quote author=epiphania link=topic=9585.msg142190#msg142190 date=1311964073]
There's many instances in the syniexar that refer the souls of saints as blameless as well. does that mean that they are without sin as well? This is just our language as Orthodox
If you could refer to some of these saints, I would be grateful.
Read this excerpt from an article called The Orthodox Veneration of Mary the Birthgiver of God by Saint John of Shanghai & San Francisco
With all due respect to the Holy Theotokos, she is not an exception. If you were to say that she had NO sin during her pregnancy this is perfectly acceptable to me. However, before and after giving birth you see the imperfection of the fallen nature even IN Mary. When she "lost" Jesus as a child and found him she said "Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing. And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father's business?" This is NOT a sin, but it shows the imperfection of humans beings that Mary like everyone had.
Likewise when Mary tells Jesus to make the water wine "the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come." Once again, the imperfections of humanity.
Again im not pointing out SINS of Mary, im just showing the imperfections of mankind seen also in the Holy Mother... One of the clearest verses is found in Luke 1, Saint Mary says, My soul glorifies the Lord and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior.
Savior of what? If she had no sins, what is the Lord Almighty saving her from? Are we not punished for sins alone? Is there a punishment for something other than sin? If not than all who sin need to be saved, those who don't sin do NOT need to be saved. I realize this could get into infant salvation but lets not talk about that right now. Infants have no free will, but Mary was obviously old enough to make her own decisions. Anyone human with free will commits sin, save Christ.
If we say Mary was sinless, this automatically implies anyone could be sinless, which means salvation on the cross is not needed because people are living sinless lives. If you look at Job it also says he was "blameless" but that doesnt mean he was sinless. We must understand Saint Mary is honored not because of herself but because of HIM... I dont think to many people realize that, especially in Orthodoxy
I'm sorry, but you are wrong. This shows a grievous misunderstanding of what sin, our fallen nature and salvation is all about. Sin is but the symptom. Christ came to save us and heal our disease, not just treat a symptom. What is the disease? Our fallen, mortal nature which is now prone to corruption and death. This is the nature that all humans possess, including the blessed Theotokos. When we speak of the sinlessness of St. Mary, we are talking about personal sins she committed. It is the Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception which states that St. Mary did not possess 'Original Sin' (which is itself an unOrthodox concept). Read St. Athanasius' treatise 'On the Incarnation'. It goes into depth about why Christ came and died for us.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
I'm sorry, but you are wrong. This shows a grievous misunderstanding of what sin, our fallen nature and salvation is all about. Sin is but the symptom. Christ came to save us and heal our disease, not just treat a symptom. What is the disease? Our fallen, mortal nature which is now prone to corruption and death. This is the nature that all humans possess, including the blessed Theotokos. When we speak of the sinlessness of St. Mary, we are talking about personal sins she committed. It is the Roman Catholic dogma of the Immaculate Conception which states that St. Mary did not possess 'Original Sin' (which is itself an unOrthodox concept). Read St. Athanasius' treatise 'On the Incarnation'. It goes into depth about why Christ came and died for us.
Ive read that book before but it hasnt lead me to the conclusion you proposed. However, I do understand Christ came to save us from our sins. Now, the fallen nature is a mortal nature which is prone to sin. If we say Mary had the fallen nature but was not prone to sin than she did not exactly share in the fallen human nature. If we look at the Bible, you do not come to the conclusion The Holy Mother was Sinless, its no where in there. I dont know of any early church fathers claiming St Mary to be Sinless her whole life, ive heard the word blameless, but that is used also for job and many other cases, this does not imply sinlessness. From what ive read also, some early church father such as St. Irenaeus and St. John Chrysostom did not believe Mary was sinless. I know Saint Augustine believed she was, but he also believed in original sin and other things against the orthodox faith.
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=9585.msg142266#msg142266 date=1312060752]
Now, the fallen nature is a mortal nature which is prone to sin. If we say Mary had the fallen nature but was not prone to sin than she did not exactly share in the fallen human nature. If we look at the Bible, you do not come to the conclusion The Holy Mother was Sinless, its no where in there. I dont know of any early church fathers claiming St Mary to be Sinless her whole life, ive heard the word blameless, but that is used also for job and many other cases, this does not imply sinlessness. From what ive read also, some early church father such as St. Irenaeus and St. John Chrysostom did not believe Mary was sinless. I know Saint Augustine believed she was, but he also believed in original sin and other things against the orthodox faith.
Note the bolded statement. Where exactly did I either say, or imply that? Kindly do not put words or thoughts in my mouth. Feel free to read through everything I've written. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the idea that St. Mary is sinless is accepted in the Church. It is theologoumenon, and so you can choose to accept it or not. It is not vital for one's salvation.
Romans 3:23 NKJV
for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God
I have stated this before and I will stat it again: The Bible speaks in absolute terms and when it says all it means all. Thus, it is absurd to say anyone can live without sin except Christ Himself.
Sin is the symptom of our fallen nature and without God's grace we cannot confine sin. This grace came through Christ's death, resurrection and the pouring of the Holy Spirit. St Mary obviously falls in the category of "all have sinned" and did not receive the grace of the Holy Spirit before she was still living in the temple.
the reason you might think so imikhail is that Fr. Tadrous' statment was presently incorrectly. The belief of the Church, and that is explained by Fr. Tadrous, is that Saint Mary became sinless after the dwelling of the Holy Spirit in her, the overshadowing of the Father and the conception of the Son for after that much grace, one simply cannot sin. it's like us the second right after our repentance and confession.....we are pure and can be called 'sinless' until we sin again.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=9585.msg142277#msg142277 date=1312075838] I have noticed this isue with Fr. Tadsos' books. With all sue respect to him, I find his writings support one idea over the another.
the reason you might think so imikhail is that Fr. Tadrous' statment was presently incorrectly. The belief of the Church, and that is explained by Fr. Tadrous, is that Saint Mary became sinless after the dwelling of the Holy Spirit in her, the overshadowing of the Father and the conception of the Son for after that much grace, one simply cannot sin. it's like us the second right after our repentance and confession.....we are pure and can be called 'sinless' until we sin again.
Mina, I don't understand the first sentence you wrote. Are you saying that I presented what Fr. Tadros wrote incorrectly? If you think so, please quote his writing. He doesn't say anything about when St. Mary became sinless. . .
Do you think that the Virgin received a grace that is superior than what has been received by the rest of us?
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=9585.msg142308#msg142308 date=1312145899]
Do you think that the Virgin received a grace that is superior than what has been received by the rest of us?
Is this a rhetorical question? If the Archangel Gabriel greeted her with, 'Hail to you full of Grace, the Lord is with you!', you don't think that is a superior greeting? Of course she has received a grace greater than any human. She is the Theotokos, she is full of Grace, she is elevated above the Sherobim and Ceraphim. You think anyone else is qualified for that? Because she is full of Grace, because she submitted her will fully with the Will of God, it is not difficult to see why the blessed Theotokos could conceivably not have committed any personal sins.
The same is true of the Baptist, who was filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb.
Name any other human, any other saint, who fits these descriptions.
You may have taken my question out of context. Grace over sin is different than honor.
My question is about sinlessness. We all have received the grace not to sin, but it is up to each of us on how to deal with tnst grace.
If we say that St. Mary is sinlessness be a use the grace she received is superior than the rest if us then we are saying that the grace we received is not enough to help us reach that level that St. May had reached. We also say that God is unjust in distributing His grace and the work of The Holy Spirit is deficient in us.
Perhaps. However, you can agree that St. Mary was full of Grace, a quality no other human possess. The reason was because she was the epitome of humility and submission. She completely submitted to God's will. How can a person, who completely submits to God sin? If we say that, then God either a) sins or b) cannot keep us from sin even if we completely submit to His will.
If any of us fully submits to the will of God the way St. Mary did, then we also would be sinless. However, none of us have done that. That is why we sin. Adam and Eve were sinless in Paradise before the Fall. Wouldn't you agree? Why? Because they lived in God's grace and submitted to His will. Once they averted their eyes away from God and His will, choosing to follow the will of the serpent (and their own will) they sinned and fell. It is thus possible, despite our fallen nature, to be sinless. The Holy Theotokos is proof of that.
Mina, I don't understand the first sentence you wrote. Are you saying that I presented what Fr. Tadros wrote incorrectly? If you think so, please quote his writing. He doesn't say anything about when St. Mary became sinless. . .
i don't remember where is exactly he said it....it was a while ago when i read it.
i guess the word 'sinless' is just hard to deal with and is broad. the belief of our Church, and i will confirm this later with my spiritual father, that she was like any human, born of the sinful nature, and lived her life normally until the dwelling of the Holy Spirit...than became in a state in which she did not sin.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
Perhaps. However, you can agree that St. Mary was full of Grace, a quality no other human possess. The reason was because she was the epitome of humility and submission. She completely submitted to God's will. How can a person, who completely submits to God sin? If we say that, then God either a) sins or b) cannot keep us from sin even if we completely submit to His will.
If any of us fully submits to the will of God the way St. Mary did, then we also would be sinless. However, none of us have done that. That is why we sin. Adam and Eve were sinless in Paradise before the Fall. Wouldn't you agree? Why? Because they lived in God's grace and submitted to His will. Once they averted their eyes away from God and His will, choosing to follow the will of the serpent (and their own will) they sinned and fell. It is thus possible, despite our fallen nature, to be sinless. The Holy Theotokos is proof of that.
You are mixing different issues here:
Full of grace
Submitting to God's will rids sin.
The life in Paradise before the fall
What you need to think about is are we not full of grace? Is the grace that we received through baptism somewhat inferior to what St Mar received? Can't we also be sinless? Of course we can. But this sinlessness is not attributed to us but to the grace that we received.
The difference between us and St Mary is not in the type of grace she received, but with what she did with that grace.
Yes, grace can make us like Adam and Eve in the Paradise if we fully live by it.
Christ was sinless by nature, St. Mary is sinless by grace
So, we need to be very careful in how we explain St. Mary's purity. She, through grace and her humility, became sinless not just because she was the mother of God or because she was chosen to be the Mother of God as if she was different than the rest of us.
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=9585.msg142362#msg142362 date=1312170527]
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=9585.msg142319#msg142319 date=1312147903]
+ Irini nem ehmot,
Perhaps. However, you can agree that St. Mary was full of Grace, a quality no other human possess. The reason was because she was the epitome of humility and submission. She completely submitted to God's will. How can a person, who completely submits to God sin? If we say that, then God either a) sins or b) cannot keep us from sin even if we completely submit to His will.
If any of us fully submits to the will of God the way St. Mary did, then we also would be sinless. However, none of us have done that. That is why we sin. Adam and Eve were sinless in Paradise before the Fall. Wouldn't you agree? Why? Because they lived in God's grace and submitted to His will. Once they averted their eyes away from God and His will, choosing to follow the will of the serpent (and their own will) they sinned and fell. It is thus possible, despite our fallen nature, to be sinless. The Holy Theotokos is proof of that.
So, we need to be very careful in how we explain St. Mary's purity. She, through grace and her humility, became sinless not just because she was the mother of God or because she was chosen to be the Mother of God as if she was different than the rest of us.
I never said otherwise. Once again, St. Mary is sinless because she fully submitted to the will of God. She is full of Grace, in a way that none of us ever will be. However, the reason she is sinless is not because of grace alone, but because she submitted her will to the will of God. She freely chose not to sin.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=9585.msg142362#msg142362 date=1312170527]
[quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=9585.msg142319#msg142319 date=1312147903]
+ Irini nem ehmot,
Perhaps. However, you can agree that St. Mary was full of Grace, a quality no other human possess. The reason was because she was the epitome of humility and submission. She completely submitted to God's will. How can a person, who completely submits to God sin? If we say that, then God either a) sins or b) cannot keep us from sin even if we completely submit to His will.
If any of us fully submits to the will of God the way St. Mary did, then we also would be sinless. However, none of us have done that. That is why we sin. Adam and Eve were sinless in Paradise before the Fall. Wouldn't you agree? Why? Because they lived in God's grace and submitted to His will. Once they averted their eyes away from God and His will, choosing to follow the will of the serpent (and their own will) they sinned and fell. It is thus possible, despite our fallen nature, to be sinless. The Holy Theotokos is proof of that.
So, we need to be very careful in how we explain St. Mary's purity. She, through grace and her humility, became sinless not just because she was the mother of God or because she was chosen to be the Mother of God as if she was different than the rest of us.
I never said otherwise. Once again, St. Mary is sinless because she fully submitted to the will of God. She is full of Grace, in a way that none of us ever will be. However, the reason she is sinless is not because of grace alone, but because she submitted her will to the will of God. She freely chose not to sin.
Very well .. I think we are in agreement.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=9585.msg142266#msg142266 date=1312060752]
Now, the fallen nature is a mortal nature which is prone to sin. If we say Mary had the fallen nature but was not prone to sin than she did not exactly share in the fallen human nature. If we look at the Bible, you do not come to the conclusion The Holy Mother was Sinless, its no where in there. I dont know of any early church fathers claiming St Mary to be Sinless her whole life, ive heard the word blameless, but that is used also for job and many other cases, this does not imply sinlessness. From what ive read also, some early church father such as St. Irenaeus and St. John Chrysostom did not believe Mary was sinless. I know Saint Augustine believed she was, but he also believed in original sin and other things against the orthodox faith.
Note the bolded statement. Where exactly did I either say, or imply that? Kindly do not put words or thoughts in my mouth. Feel free to read through everything I've written. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the idea that St. Mary is sinless is accepted in the Church. It is theologoumenon, and so you can choose to accept it or not. It is not vital for one's salvation.
With all due respect I am not putting words in your mouth. Im assuming you didnt understand what I meant. You saying that Mary had no sin means she was not prone to sin. How can one be prone to sin without ever sinning.
Anyways, forget about that all answer me this question. If ONE person (St Mary) was able to live a life without sin, this would imply it is possible for humans with free will to live sinless lives. Thus Christ did NOT need to die on the cross, He simply needed to give us a rebirth of the fallen nature i.e. Baptism. But The Death on the cross was the punishment for sin which Christ HAD to pay. What punishment is there with the absence of sin? You can say the Church believes in St Mary's sinlessness, but from what ive read, and from the priests and monks ive spoken too, and from obvious readings of the Bible, thats simply not true. If anything, the Church is divided on the teaching, but its definitely not a fact, at least in the coptic orthodox church. I dont recall Pope Shenouda ever claiming the Virgin was sinless
It is clear to me that you are not reading what I'm saying.
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=9585.msg142412#msg142412 date=1312231746]
With all due respect I am not putting words in your mouth. Im assuming you didnt understand what I meant. You saying that Mary had no sin means she was not prone to sin. How can one be prone to sin without ever sinning.
Here is the definition for 'prone': Source
The pertinent definition has been bolded. All humans are prone to sin. That does not mean that we necessarily will sin. All humans have inherited the fallen, corrupt, mortal nature as a consequence of Adam's sin which makes us all prone to sin. However, just because we are prone to something does not mean that we will act on it. A person who is genetically susceptible to alcoholism will not necessarily become an alcoholic, especially if the willfully choose not to take a single drink in their entire life. It's the same idea.
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=9585.msg142412#msg142412 date=1312231746]
Anyways, forget about that all answer me this question. If ONE person (St Mary) was able to live a life without sin, this would imply it is possible for humans with free will to live sinless lives. Thus Christ did NOT need to die on the cross, He simply needed to give us a rebirth of the fallen nature i.e. Baptism. But The Death on the cross was the punishment for sin which Christ HAD to pay. What punishment is there with the absence of sin? You can say the Church believes in St Mary's sinlessness, but from what ive read, and from the priests and monks ive spoken too, and from obvious readings of the Bible, thats simply not true. If anything, the Church is divided on the teaching, but its definitely not a fact, at least in the coptic orthodox church. I dont recall Pope Shenouda ever claiming the Virgin was sinless
Our fallen, corrupt, mortal nature is a result of Adam's sin. Prior to the fall, man was mortal but incorruptible and lived in God's presence and thus would not die. After Adam's sin, the consequence was corruption and mortality and so death entered into the world. That is something all humans have to face now: death. As such, Christ had to come and save us. He saved us from death. He restored and elevated our nature. He granted us immortality once more. Even though St. Mary did not commit any personal sins (because she willfully submitted her will to God's and willfully chose not to sin) she still has the same nature as every other human. As such, she also needed to be saved from it. Her nature also had to be restored. THAT is why Christ came. To save us from death. Once again, sin is just the symptom, death is the disease.
I'm going to say this one more time: the idea that St. Mary is sinless is accepted in the Church. It is theologoumenon, and so you can choose to accept it or not. It is not vital for one's salvation.
I cannot be any clearer than this.
+ Irini nem ehmot,
It is clear to me that you are not reading what I'm saying.
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=9585.msg142412#msg142412 date=1312231746]
With all due respect I am not putting words in your mouth. Im assuming you didnt understand what I meant. You saying that Mary had no sin means she was not prone to sin. How can one be prone to sin without ever sinning.
Here is the definition for 'prone': Source
The pertinent definition has been bolded. All humans are prone to sin. That does not mean that we necessarily will sin. All humans have inherited the fallen, corrupt, mortal nature as a consequence of Adam's sin which makes us all prone to sin. However, just because we are prone to something does not mean that we will act on it. A person who is genetically susceptible to alcoholism will not necessarily become an alcoholic, especially if the willfully choose not to take a single drink in their entire life. It's the same idea.
[quote author=Meena_Ameen link=topic=9585.msg142412#msg142412 date=1312231746]
Anyways, forget about that all answer me this question. If ONE person (St Mary) was able to live a life without sin, this would imply it is possible for humans with free will to live sinless lives. Thus Christ did NOT need to die on the cross, He simply needed to give us a rebirth of the fallen nature i.e. Baptism. But The Death on the cross was the punishment for sin which Christ HAD to pay. What punishment is there with the absence of sin? You can say the Church believes in St Mary's sinlessness, but from what ive read, and from the priests and monks ive spoken too, and from obvious readings of the Bible, thats simply not true. If anything, the Church is divided on the teaching, but its definitely not a fact, at least in the coptic orthodox church. I dont recall Pope Shenouda ever claiming the Virgin was sinless
Our fallen, corrupt, mortal nature is a result of Adam's sin. Prior to the fall, man was mortal but incorruptible and lived in God's presence and thus would not die. After Adam's sin, the consequence was corruption and mortality and so death entered into the world. That is something all humans have to face now: death. As such, Christ had to come and save us. He saved us from death. He restored and elevated our nature. He granted us immortality once more. Even though St. Mary did not commit any personal sins (because she willfully submitted her will to God's and willfully chose not to sin) she still has the same nature as every other human. As such, she also needed to be saved from it. Her nature also had to be restored. THAT is why Christ came. To save us from death. Once again, sin is just the symptom, death is the disease.
I'm going to say this one more time: the idea that St. Mary is sinless is accepted in the Church. It is theologoumenon, and so you can choose to accept it or not. It is not vital for one's salvation.
I cannot be any clearer than this.
I see what your saying, but I dont think you answered my last question. Let me make it more clear.. I agree with you 100% that St Mary still needed saving. BUT the Death on the cross was for the forgiveness of sins it was a punishment. However, Christ's incarnation ALONE blessed the human nature, and Baptism is the means by which we are reborn of Christ, sharing of Christs nature rather than our first birth into the corrupt nature of Adam. So If Mary was able to live a life without sin (Even though the Bible says its impossible for a man to live a single day without sinning) doesn't this imply anyone/everyone can live a sinless life and thus Christ would still have to have come into the world as a human but would NOT have to have died on the cross. Do you see what im saying? Human death was always around, even before the fall. The tree of Life which Adam did not eat of because he was kicked out of the garden was the means by which he would have lived for ever as a human. Where'as the spiritual death is caused by ones personal sins. James 1:15 "Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death." Notice he says when lust has CONCEIVED that is, realized by the individual, it gives birth to sin (knowing that its wrong), and when sin is accomplished, that is, when you commit the act of doing something you know is wrong, it brings forth death. So corruption and mortality are purely spiritual results of the fallen nature, the physical death was the mercy of God who kicked us out of the garden lest we should eat of the tree of life and live forever in our bodies as corrupt mortal "dead" spirits trapped in the body. And thus we could never be with God.. like a hell on earth almost.
p.s. I am reading what you are saying, and I know the definition of prone and used that term because im use to using it though its not the "official" word used to explain the doctrine of the inherited fallen nature.
Please pray that I gain understanding, forgive me if ive been offensive, I just want to know the truth even though like you said it is theologoumenon.
Read this and this. It shows how the Church teaches that man, before the fall, was mortal but incorruptible (i.e. would not die). Christ died to save us from death (as we say in the Liturgy). So in the case of St. Mary, her nature was mortal and corruptible (as a consequence of the fall). As such, she faced the same penalty as the rest of us, death. Even if she didn't commit any personal sins of her own, she still needed to be saved from Death, which is what Christ's death did. Baptism does not transform our nature. Baptism is the mean of allowing us to grow in Christ (Theosis).
But we can find the answers from the Bible. God created man from the earth and based on this fact alone there are several questions that we can ponder.
What was God's plan for man? Was it just to live in the garden for eternity? We can find the answer in the following verse:
"Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matthew 25:34)
This shows that God’s plan was to have man inherit His kingdom and not remain in the garden forever.
The next question is: Can the earthly inherit the non-earthly? In other words, could have Adam and his descendants inherit the Kingdom in the same form as they were living in the garden?
The answer : “ … flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.” (1 Corinthian 15:50)
How would Adam have inherited the kingdom had he not fallen?
St Paul explains:
"Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." (1 Thess 4:17)
"who will transform our lowly body that it may be conformed to His glorious body, according to the working by which He is able even to subdue all things to Himself." (Pilippians 3:21)
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=9585.msg142895#msg142895 date=1312947059] Baptism does transform our corruptible nature into incorruptible so that we may inherit the Kingdom. Without baptism, no one will inherit the kingdom.
After baptism, are we still prone to sin? Do we still die? Then how has our nature transformed? Through baptism we die in Christ and are reborn into Him, but I do not believe our nature is transformed. Again, it gives us the means to grow in Christ (Theosis).
Baptism: Source
+ Irini nem ehmot,
[quote author=imikhail link=topic=9585.msg142895#msg142895 date=1312947059] Baptism does transform our corruptible nature into incorruptible so that we may inherit the Kingdom. Without baptism, no one will inherit the kingdom.
After baptism, are we still prone to sin? Do we still die? Then how has our nature transformed? Through baptism we die in Christ and are reborn into Him, but I do not believe our nature is transformed. Again, it gives us the means to grow in Christ (Theosis).
Baptism: Source
Baptism transforms our corruptible nature and make it ready to inherit the kingdom if we live righteously. With no baptism there is no inheritance of the Kingdom.
Our eternal death that we are born with is washed away through baptism. This is the transformation I referred to.
What you said is our nature is transformed and becomes incorruptible. That is not true. Likewise, the eternal death you speak of is not washed away per se. There are people who have been baptised who may very well taste eternal death. I prefer the wording of the OrthoWiki article, personally.
(Note: God is not limited by baptism. He can save whomever He wishes using whatever means He wishes, baptism or no.)
+ Irini nem ehmot,
What you said is our nature is transformed and becomes incorruptible. That is not true. Likewise, the eternal death you speak of is not washed away per se. There are people who have been baptised who may very well taste eternal death. I prefer the wording of the OrthoWiki article, personally.
(Note: God is not limited by baptism. He can save whomever He wishes using whatever means He wishes, baptism or no.)
That is your own belief because it seems you do not believe in the verse:
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. (Mark 16:16)
Methinks you are reading too much into that verse. The verse does not say:
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not and is baptized not shall be damned. (Mark 16:16)
To say God cannot save whomever He wishes limits God's abilities. You sure you want to walk down that road?
Some beautiful thoughts by the Fathers on baptismal grace: Source