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Comments
I meant a church full of Americans, primarily not of Egyptian heritage, worshiping according to the norms established by the Coptic Orthodox Church. Call it whatever you want. That's not the important part of the post.
This would be ideal ...
Rather (and I know this will make me an unpopular extremist weirdo), I think there is some sense in which converts must "suck it up" or "walk it off" with regard to their uncomfortable feelings. This does NOT include abandoning their language (I agree with Zoxsasi that priests should try to learn the language of the country if they want to minister to converts; that's just common sense), but must include any residual feelings that they may keep in any sense their previous Protestant/Catholic/whatever styles of worship or theology when they conflict with Orthodoxy. I remember being told once by a British friend who converted from Evangelical Protestantism to Eastern Orthodoxy that there was a group of Anglicans who sought union with an apostolic church and were trying to decide between being in union with Rome or with Constantinople. When they approached Rome, they were greeted very warmly and given all sorts of allowances by which they could keep basically of their Anglican rites and theology with only minor changes in order to make them more "Rome-ish" (this makes sense when you consider how Rome and Canterbury are but two sides of the same coin, but I digress). On the other hand, when they approached the Eastern Orthodox they were told that NO, they could not keep their Anglican rites and must convert to Byzantine theology and practice as part of their conversion to Orthodoxy in general, and given what they must have apparently figured were solid reasons why, as they ended up becoming Orthodox, not Catholics.
Now, I suspect that the OO position might be slightly more nuanced than this, as the communion in general is not so monolithic in terms of its practices as the EO seem to be (from this outsider's perspective), but I do feel that there is something admirable in bringing the convert in line with the church as it exists in whatever land we're talking about, rather than creating a new church for every new person. I am sure there is line to be respected here between following the early church model where things were organized in precisely that way (the church was seemingly always the "the church AT ______", respecting the particulars of the local community) and maintaining the integrity of worship (this is the cause of the tension felt by Zoxsasi and others, I suspect). It seems that the Coptic Orthodox Church is still figuring out exactly where that line is in Belgium.
I think the fact that I exist and Mabsoota exists and many, many other converts to various Orthodox churches exist, and accept the churches as they are while trying to help them become more welcoming of outsiders shows that things will eventually get better. Second generation, American/European-born Copts could and probably do also play a critical role in this process (it is hard to tell from this vantage point, since most of what happens here on Tasbeha is complaining about how they are being Protestantized/Protestantizing the church). The point is that we not throw out the baby with the bathwater and say that just because this one aspect is not happening as we'd like it to (with regard to the language of the liturgy), therefore the church is bad/wrong/uncaring or what have you. All local circumstances demand their own reactions particular to those places. In Mexico, for instance, where the church is mostly converts, the liturgies are mostly in Spanish. Check it out for yourself. Notice how this isn't a newly established "Orthodox Church of Mexico" or whatever. I wouldn't have any problem with it being called that (a rose by any other name, y'know), but my only point is that it isn't strictly necessary to establish a new church along cultural/ethnic lines in order to respect the local culture and preach in the local language. Why that apparently isn't being done in Belgium but is being done in Mexico, I don't know.
I doubt that there exist long hymns in the OCA similar to those in the Coptic Church. Yes, we can translate everything but up to a limit.
As much as I love to have converts in my Church I fear that we may lose our heritage in the process. That is why I am advocating for a missionary Church that tend solely to the converts.
The Church in Villejuif - Paris is really like an Egyptian Cafe. Loud music during the mass. People using their phones during the liturgy. Its a headache.
The priest doesn't speak a word of French... he starts with Bonjour / Bonsoir, but that's about it.
The Church in Leuven is lovely - its very quiet.. except that the priest hates it when children cry which means that if u have kids, you are obliged to use the babies room. But then what's the point of attending the mass with your kids if you are in a room with crying babies? What will the children achieve anyway?
After the liturgy, its indeed quite civilized.. nothing like Villejuif. Its a very descent place in fact.
In the UK, the liturgy is usually in English. However, life after Church can be a bit of an obstacle for new comers. The youth all know each other sense they were embryos in their mother's wombs, so being part of a group is hard. Then i'm not entirely sure that its an Orthodox Church.
The Youth all go to Protestant Churches anyway - The priests aren't that solid in their faith to correct any issues concerning what they may have learnt in the protestant Churches, and on top of it, the Bishop(s) there seem to think its cool to enter into happy clappy protestant songs with them at any event where the occasion arises.
In Canada, its an Egyptian Club. Period. The only thing missing from the Churches there is someone needs to put the picture of the prime-minister of Egypt on the walls in the Church canteen.
That's it.
its not a church. Its an Egyptian Centre.
I really think this "the foreigners can't handle/won't like long hymns" idea is not realistic. The length of the hymns is not really an issue unless you are prone to have your mind wander away due to other distractions, and I hardly think that is a problem for converts only.
The issue with some cultural aspects of Coptic Orthodoxy, as an example of a local Orthodoxy, is restricted to language and tunes. Those are really the only issues. Much as I love Orthodoxy, and have embraced Coptic Orthodoxy in particular, I do not find Arabic and Coptic tunes to be naturally attractive.
What is to be done? I don't need a different Church, but I need this Church to be responsive to these elements of language and music. Nothing else.
imikhail, I only take issue with you because you have chosen to live in the US. You are no longer an Egyptian, though of Egyptian origin. Your children will be less Egyptian. Your grandchildren even more so. At what point will your family be American of some mixed Egyptian background, and therefore need to worship authentically as Americans of some mixed Egyptian background? Surely it is not appropriate or according to Orthodoxy values, for people whose grandparents originated in another country to persist in using their grandparents language as if the local one was defective in some way?
At what point do you need to become authentically American while always valuing the Egyptian heritage? Surely this will require at some point, and certainly for children and grandchildren, that American English be used primarily and not as a second-best but as a natural development?
If you think that it is not possible to be an Orthodox Christian living genuinely according to the Coptic spiritual tradition unless Arabic or Coptic is used, and Arabic or Coptic tunes, then on this matter alone I have to disagree with you. The Coptic spiritual tradition has already made the transition from Aramaic to Greek, there is no reason why the transitions from Greek to Coptic to Arabic cannot continue into English and many other languages.
Indeed even the issue of music might be resolved with a professional, spiritual and intelligent development of a Westernised form of simple Coptic chant tunes, that is Western chants which have a musical connection to the Coptic tunes. There is an ancient and Orthodox tradition of Western chant, and a great many specialists with extensive knowledge and experience. The choice is not between Coptic/Arabic chant and Protestant hymns. It is between an Eastern Chant that is at times not culturally appropriate to Western culture, and a Western tradition of chant that goes back as early as the Coptic tradition. I am sure that some sympathetic fusion of the two is possible.
Father Peter
We need to be diligent in going back to the Fathers and learning at their feet, and learning from the mistakes of their contemporaries.
While I am very conservative about the Coptic Orthodox Church's rites and hymns, which is evident in my participation with the HCOC choir (for example), it must be remembered that these rites and hymns serve our Coptic people, and do not necessarily have any spiritual significance or meaning to converts (unless they're fascinated with Orientalism).
The Coptic rites and hymns are good in themselves, but they only serve those who could understand it and use it in their prayers. The key term here is "serve." The hymns and rites are in service of the people, to aid in worship. To force converts to become "Coptic" Orthodox (actually, it's worse... we force them to be Egyptians with Arabic-influenced culture and ideals) is a sin, because it points to our worship of our culture, rites and hymns. The culture becomes an end, rather than a means to worship God.
Let the converts freely express their worship in their own heritage, provided it's spiritual and reverent.
The Coptic Church, unfortunately, does not have a theology of mission, and does not know how to missionize either. Orthodox faith is caught, not taught. Orthodox faith is a living expression of spirituality and union with God, not the worship of the false idols of cultures, rites, hymns, and languages.
[quote author=dzheremi link=topic=11903.msg142026#msg142026 date=1311793071]
Now, I suspect that the OO position might be slightly more nuanced than this, as the communion in general is not so monolithic in terms of its practices as the EO seem to be (from this outsider's perspective),
What do you mean by this? Are you saying OO is made up of composite cultures and practices, while the EO has a solid practice?
What I advocate, and I think Fr. Peter hit on, is the issue of art which includes music, iconography, ...
The issue of the Coptic Church is that it is still new in the West and it will take time to develop or morph into a missionary Church like the OCA, BOC. Even when she reaches that point, I still imagine that there will be two forms of the Coptic Church; the one that follows the Egyptian rite and the other that that follows the local rite.
[quote author=dzheremi link=topic=11903.msg142026#msg142026 date=1311793071]
Now, I suspect that the OO position might be slightly more nuanced than this, as the communion in general is not so monolithic in terms of its practices as the EO seem to be (from this outsider's perspective),
What do you mean by this? Are you saying OO is made up of composite cultures and practices, while the EO has a solid practice?
I'm not sure how to explain it any differently. Basically, from what I've seen there is one way to be Eastern Orthodox -- embrace Byzantine spirituality and practice. While I don't at all see this as a bad thing in and of itself, I am personally drawn to the more varied and somewhat "wider" approach (for lack of a better way to put it) of the non-Chalcedonian Orthodox communion.
I understand what you're getting at, but I think it is rather irrelevant. The OCA traces itself to the activities of a group of Russian Orthodox missionaries, a fact that is somewhat removed from the ultimate origin of the Russian Orthodox Church some hundreds of years earlier.
Agape,
While I am very conservative about the Coptic Orthodox Church's rites and hymns, which is evident in my participation with the HCOC choir (for example), it must be remembered that these rites and hymns serve our Coptic people, and do not necessarily have any spiritual significance or meaning to converts (unless they're fascinated with Orientalism).
The Coptic rites and hymns are good in themselves, but they only serve those who could understand it and use it in their prayers. The key term here is "serve." The hymns and rites are in service of the people, to aid in worship. To force converts to become "Coptic" Orthodox (actually, it's worse... we force them to be Egyptians with Arabic-influenced culture and ideals) is a sin, because it points to our worship of our culture, rites and hymns. The culture becomes an end, rather than a means to worship God.
Let the converts freely express their worship in their own heritage, provided it's spiritual and reverent.
The Coptic Church, unfortunately, does not have a theology of mission, and does not know how to missionize either. Orthodox faith is caught, not taught. Orthodox faith is a living expression of spirituality and union with God, not the worship of the false idols of cultures, rites, hymns, and languages.
I agree entirely with this.
Very well written also.
You know, let's look a bit to the future here: What will the Church be for our Children who live outside Egypt? Are we handing over to them a country club where they stay in contact with the Children who were friends of their parents? Are we offering them the last bastion of Egyptian Culture that could exist outside Egypt for those of us who are scared about losing our Egyptian identity???
What WILL the Coptic Church be like for our children??
I think every egyptian has to make a decision in his/her life: Are you Egyptian or Christian?
What are you doing in Europe? Are you here to make Money and leave or do you want to live and be part of Europe and accept it as your new home?? These questions need to be answered and addressed by every Egyptian / Coptic Christian living outside Egypt.
I'm pretty sure that when you answer these questions yourself, you will see that you will hope that your children are raised CHRISTIAN ORTHODOX, and the need to maintain your Egyptian identity becomes less and less important.
This will lead you to another sorrowful conclusion:
If you want your kids to be Christian Orthodox, then how compatible is this with the European culture you live in? The answer is: NOT VERY!!
Then this will lead you to another sorrowing conclusion: there is a need for a CHRISTIAN fraternity that is Orthodox - right now, there isn't!
You know, I went to a lebanese restaurant run by muslims a few days ago. They were so nice to us. I think they even gave us free drinks - but we had a nice time. I just cannot help but think to myself: what is the difference between the atmosphere and activities in this restaurant and that of the Church hall after mass?? THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE? The atmosphere is the same, the people look/act the same, there's no French being spoken, only Arabic. The food tastes the same...
Do we REALLY want our children to inherit an Egyptian cafe with a cross on top of it???
Do you REALLY want this!????
This is the way the Church is going.
How can we change this? How can we change the Church INTO a Church?
Easy: REMOVE the "EGYPTIAN" part of it.
and secondly, the Orthodox Church has to become more catholic - i.e. UNIVERSAL.. it should not be a CHurch for a particular nation, but for ALL nations.
Now, does this mean unity with the Catholics? Not necessarily, although some traditionalist catholics would not object to this idea at all.
I think unity between all Orthodox denominations is vital - and a unity that transcends cultural barriers but is solidified in one Apostolic faith and Baptism.
This is what is needed.
Instead, we will deliver the faith and guide the converts to use their own heritage in a Christian mold. This is the way the Church started and this is the way it exists today, and this is the way it shall be.
Let me say this in disagreement with Fr. Peter, the point I will always live disagreeing with him about: my basic understanding of the Coptic Church in the diaspora is to BOTH (1) serve the Coptic community living there, and (2) SECONDLY in capital letters as a missionary church. I think you Fr. Peter keep telling every one how the church will be with our children growing up in the UK as in my case, or in the USA as in imikhail's case, but seriously, the matter is not as simple as that. We cannot expect the Coptic church to change its skin and baptisma (Greek for colour) over the course of some years or generations. That implies there is something completely wrong with the way of thinking of people in that church - which indeed is a valid point that appears more and more with Egyptians, and unfortunately Christian Egyptians throughout the ages. Before I go back to that point, churches which belong to the church of England in Egypt, or any other Arab-speaking country for that matter: how long does it take for them to change their rites into Arabic? Never is the answer. What about in other Western countries, even America (which speaks English)? I presume the answer again is NEVER. What about European countries? Spain, Portugal, ... etc?
OK, now going back to my point: when I have children I will teach them the values that I was brought up with in the Egyptian culture, and that encompasses the Church rites. It is up to them to live by these or not, but my values do not change. They may be made different, or take another shape or form since I live in a country other than Egypt, but my values are the same. Whether I like it or not, my view of the world, of the British people, or of Egyptians has changed, but my principles did not. It is exactly the same argument for the Church. The Coptic Church is there to keep serving people who come from Egypt. Egypt will not cease to exist, neither will Egyptians cease to emigrate, and even if that is the case, the Coptic church will do Herself a grave amount of harm if she changes to be a BOC. If so, why not just sell the churches now and that is it?
Personally speaking Fr. Peter, I would not think with you being a British that you have the sympathy of your children living elsewhere and copying other people's traditions. They will stay British even if they live on the moon. AT THE VERY LEAST THIS IS MY STANCE. One last word, Coptic culture is part of the Coptic church, and that is a fact.
Oujai qen `P[C
My children would have grown up speaking some English but mostly Finnish. If I thought that it was most important that they grow up considering themselves English then I should have brought them up in England. If I wanted them to grow up in Finland then I must expect that they would consider themselves Finns with an English background. I must expect them to be more familiar with the Kalevala than Shakespeare. Otherwise the Finns might rightly ask on what basis I had chosen to live in Finland.
The example of Anglicans in Egypt is a bad one. I have never been an Anglican and the idea of planting the Church of England in Egypt is deeply problematic not least from a language point of view.
The Church has a responsibility to care for new immigrants who do not speak English, but it is not Orthodox to maintain a foreign language after several generations. English should not be used in Egypt, but the opposite also stands. Soon it will not be allowed for immigrants to come to England who do not speak and understand English. That does not seem unreasonable. This IS England and to participate in our society requires fluency in English. A determination not to use English will become increadingly problematic since it will be seen as a rejection of British society. My own concern is that i find it un-orthodox as a practice after multiple generations living in England.
There is a difference between liturgical language and communicative language. By default 2nd, 3rd, .. generations will speak the language of the land and the Church communicates in that language. I do not see this as an issue whatsoever in the Coptic Church. I understand that there are exceptions like that of Zoksasi but this will change by time.
Liturgical language of the Coptic Church is Coptic and will remain so whether the Church is in England or Bangladesh. The Church will never abandon this language .. at least that is my hope.
Again, this is all separate from how any of us think it should be. It's simply a sociolinguistic fact.
I wasn't actually talking about Coptic language as such, but as traditions and values in the Egyptian cultural context in general. Yes language is part of that, but not every thing. Please forgive me if I say that you give a rather superficial argument for people who would like to keep their traditions (or as you put it mainly language) of sticking within their country of birth and not moving out - of course irrespective of rationale, or pursuits in every one's case. For you it is easy to say that if you stayed in Finland you would be expected to learn Finnish, and even go to a Finnish church. This is not the case for Coptic Orthodox people. People live Egypt for all sorts of reasons, not least because of oppression and persecution of Christians. They are not expected to speak British, but as you rightly pointed out they are expected to learn the language and know about a society (take the "life in the UK" language test), and prove they are up to the task of living in this country. BUT, when it comes to traditions, and EXPRESSION of faith, that is different. You cannot ask me to throw away the inherent part of me for the sake of living and assimilating myself in the British society. I can do that by several means, but not necessarily by forgetting who I am. In fact, I may even point out to the Chinese, and the Indians, who "invaded" many parts of the world, and yet, they are the best nations to keep hold of their traditions without limiting themselves from interacting with their society. It is only because Egypt is a third world country that people immigrate. That said, it is immigration of their own choice. They shouldn't be therefore expected to get out of their skins and become British, American, Canadians, or whatever. In fact, what zoxsasi (I believe) have said about churches in Canada doesn't upset me at all; if anything it fills me with pride. People are living there as Egyptians (even EGyptian social clubs), and able to integrate themselves in their communities.
Oujai qen `P[C
As the old saying goes: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." This does not translate (necessarily) to "sin as the Romans sin," which is usually what goes on in Middle Eastern people's minds when they think of moving to and avoiding the influence of Western cultures. There is much spirituality in Rome, as in any culture, that can be used to praise God, equally - if not even better - than in worshipping in a tongue that makes no sense to the one who prays.
Take this an example: when the Syrians went to Egypt, they worshipped in the Coptic rites and hymns, and even built their monastic community in similar structures as the Coptic ones in Egypt, rather than the structures of Syria/Palestine.
Take this as another example: when the Egyptians preached to the Ethiopians, the Ethiopian Christians built their own churches, worshiped in their own languages, created their own rites, and composed many hymns of their own.
Christianity should always be local. Christianity should always be incarnate!
St. Maurice and St. Verina is one! I don't know where u are tho...hope this helps
[quote author=Biboboy link=topic=11903.msg142043#msg142043 date=1311802818]
Agape,
While I am very conservative about the Coptic Orthodox Church's rites and hymns, which is evident in my participation with the HCOC choir (for example), it must be remembered that these rites and hymns serve our Coptic people, and do not necessarily have any spiritual significance or meaning to converts (unless they're fascinated with Orientalism).
The Coptic rites and hymns are good in themselves, but they only serve those who could understand it and use it in their prayers. The key term here is "serve." The hymns and rites are in service of the people, to aid in worship. To force converts to become "Coptic" Orthodox (actually, it's worse... we force them to be Egyptians with Arabic-influenced culture and ideals) is a sin, because it points to our worship of our culture, rites and hymns. The culture becomes an end, rather than a means to worship God.
Let the converts freely express their worship in their own heritage, provided it's spiritual and reverent.
The Coptic Church, unfortunately, does not have a theology of mission, and does not know how to missionize either. Orthodox faith is caught, not taught. Orthodox faith is a living expression of spirituality and union with God, not the worship of the false idols of cultures, rites, hymns, and languages.
I agree entirely with this.
Very well written also.
You know, let's look a bit to the future here: What will the Church be for our Children who live outside Egypt? Are we handing over to them a country club where they stay in contact with the Children who were friends of their parents? Are we offering them the last bastion of Egyptian Culture that could exist outside Egypt for those of us who are scared about losing our Egyptian identity???
What WILL the Coptic Church be like for our children??
I think every egyptian has to make a decision in his/her life: Are you Egyptian or Christian?
What are you doing in Europe? Are you here to make Money and leave or do you want to live and be part of Europe and accept it as your new home?? These questions need to be answered and addressed by every Egyptian / Coptic Christian living outside Egypt.
I'm pretty sure that when you answer these questions yourself, you will see that you will hope that your children are raised CHRISTIAN ORTHODOX, and the need to maintain your Egyptian identity becomes less and less important.
This will lead you to another sorrowful conclusion:
If you want your kids to be Christian Orthodox, then how compatible is this with the European culture you live in? The answer is: NOT VERY!!
Then this will lead you to another sorrowing conclusion: there is a need for a CHRISTIAN fraternity that is Orthodox - right now, there isn't!
You know, I went to a lebanese restaurant run by muslims a few days ago. They were so nice to us. I think they even gave us free drinks - but we had a nice time. I just cannot help but think to myself: what is the difference between the atmosphere and activities in this restaurant and that of the Church hall after mass?? THERE IS NO DIFFERENCE? The atmosphere is the same, the people look/act the same, there's no French being spoken, only Arabic. The food tastes the same...
Do we REALLY want our children to inherit an Egyptian cafe with a cross on top of it???
Do you REALLY want this!????
This is the way the Church is going.
How can we change this? How can we change the Church INTO a Church?
Easy: REMOVE the "EGYPTIAN" part of it.
and secondly, the Orthodox Church has to become more catholic - i.e. UNIVERSAL.. it should not be a CHurch for a particular nation, but for ALL nations.
Now, does this mean unity with the Catholics? Not necessarily, although some traditionalist catholics would not object to this idea at all.
I think unity between all Orthodox denominations is vital - and a unity that transcends cultural barriers but is solidified in one Apostolic faith and Baptism.
This is what is needed.
I'm sorry zoxasi but I disagree with you.
I take almost as much pride in being Egyptian as I do in my Coptic church.
I don't feel like I have to give up the Egyptian identity to have a strong christian church. the after-church meal IS for normal socializing. You want a more spiritual atmosphere? go to bible study, or one of the youth outtings or one of the many other spiritual activities our church has. meal time IS for socialization. it IS for making friends with other ppl in the church. The church meets our spiritual AND social needs. What's wrong with that?
I'm not against unity with any other church. I just don't see our culture as a barrier to our christian lives.
If you're dying to give it up, there are white-washed coptic churches out there. I'm not saying that as a bad thing at all. I think its great. We want to include more people in the Orthodox faith, and those really help to do that! But that doesn't make all churches that hang on to the egyptian aspect kokha.
As I said earlier, we worship God, not our languages and cultures. It is a sin to create the idol of Coptic and worship it.
As the old saying goes: "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." This does not translate (necessarily) to "sin as the Romans sin," which is usually what goes on in Middle Eastern people's minds when they think of moving to and avoiding the influence of Western cultures. There is much spirituality in Rome, as in any culture, that can be used to praise God, equally - if not even better - than in worshipping in a tongue that makes no sense to the one who prays.
Take this an example: when the Syrians went to Egypt, they worshipped in the Coptic rites and hymns, and even built their monastic community in similar structures as the Coptic ones in Egypt, rather than the structures of Syria/Palestine.
Take this as another example: when the Egyptians preached to the Ethiopians, the Ethiopian Christians built their own churches, worshiped in their own languages, created their own rites, and composed many hymns of their own.
Christianity should always be local. Christianity should always be incarnate!
I find this a bit ironic - considering you are a member of the HCOC. Why expend all the energy and time learning and recording hymns in Coptic? Why not record them all in English?
I'm sorry zoxasi but I disagree with you.
I take almost as much pride in being Egyptian as I do in my Coptic church.
See.. that's my problem. What the heck are you doing outside Egypt? Why not live back in Egypt if you feel that proud?
Let's say (because I don't know you) that you are living in America - are you more proud to be American or Egyptian? Or are you more proud to be British or Egyptian?
YOU ARE ABOVE ALL A CHRISTIAN!!! If you love Egypt that much, get out of my beautiful Orthodox Church and either go back to Egypt, find an Egyptian restaurant/bar someone and stay there.
When you want to pray, when you want to exercise TRUE ORTHODOXY - irrelevant of Egyptian Culture - come back.
Its people and attitudes like yours that have ruined my Church. You've created an Egyptian atmosphere in an Orthodox Church . What are you doing outside Egypt? I hope its not for a long time, I hope you are going back to Egypt soon??? Please don't tell me that you love Egypt that much, AS MUCH as being Coptic Orthodox, and you are living off of welfare in other non Egyptian Countries??? PLEASE!!! The atmosphere in a Church with people who think like you, behave like you,act like you, is AWFUL. Its not a Church.
if you wrote: "I am originally from Egypt, but I'm living now in country XYZ , and Country XYZ is my home and I love it, but I AM above all a Christian" - I could respect your opinion.
But look at what you wrote: You are proud to be Egyptian as much as you are to be Coptic. This entire attitude will resonate in many ways within the Church - EVEN IN A BIBLE STUDY!!! Its a barrier.. and if you read my post carefully, YOU are the type of person that will causing our children to inherit an Egyptian club, not an Orthodox Church.
I want my kid to be proud to be French. They have no association with Egypt. I don't want them to MEET YOU, or people like you. They will DEFINATELY feel left out of Church life if they go there.
My Arabic IMPROVED DRAMMATICALLY whilst going to a Coptic Orthodox Church in Canada. The people there didn't speak French / English in the Church - it was ALL Arabic.
Thanks for your examples man, now I can see you're on the same wavelength as I am
Oujai