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Asomento in Italian, French, German, Spanish

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  • imikhailimikhail

    If you take out non-popular hymns because they are Greek and not Coptic, then you'll have to rewrite all the bilingual hymns like Aripsalin and Kiahk psalies.

    Both of these items are examples of rookies trying to write in Greek since they contain many errors.



  • imikhailimikhail

    You'll have to come up with a new alphabet too.

    I am not sure what does the alphabet have to do with modern Greek hymns that are not authentic.

    Do not take one issue and stretch it to invalidate the logic behind it being an issue.
  • imikhailimikhail

    Because 'everyone' knows that Coptic is the language of the Divine, that Christ spoke Coptic, that the Apostles spoke Coptic, that the first language ever to exist was Coptic, that Coptic is superior, that Coptic is the language the angels praise in, that Coptic rocks and every other language sucks, that God does not understand any other language except Coptic... need I go on?


    AMEN

    I am with you on this Cephas
  • imikhailimikhail

    I do not understand why Copts are so anti-Greek

    Because it was Byzantium that persecuted the Copts

    Because we always think they are better than us to the point we went to them to have them teach us how to say our alphabet thereby destroying our heritage.

    Because we think they are more adept musically that we went to bowwow their hymns.

    Because they look better than us :)
  • BiboboyBiboboy
    Remenkimi, when you return, please give us a short summary of Hany N. Takla's, The Sale of Dismembered Manuscripts of Coptic Egypt on eBay. Update Report.

    Thanks!
  • yousiegtennisyousiegtennis
    [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=11736.msg140555#msg140555 date=1309459755]
    that Christ spoke Coptic


    Christ spoke Aramaic.
  • Michael Boutros
    [quote author=GODlovesme link=topic=11736.msg140564#msg140564 date=1309466387]
    [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=11736.msg140555#msg140555 date=1309459755]
    that Christ spoke Coptic


    Christ spoke Aramaic.


    The whole post was sarcastic ;)
  • RemnkemiRemnkemi
    imikhail,

    Do you have any proof whatsoever that these so-called poor linguistic Greek hymns were written by rookies? Do you have any proof that these are actually poor linguistic hymns? Non-standard Greek hymns do not equal poor Greek hymns written by "rookies". Non-standard Greek hymns, as any social linguist will tell you, is only a linguistic variety. A variety is not more authentic than the standard. In fact, the only way a language becomes standard is politics, not linguistic authenticity, validity, or superiority.

    Second by your definition, we should not use Arabic because the Arabs persecuted the Copts much more than Byzantium did. And if you really want to get picky, the British occupied Egypt, the French, the Ottomans. So none of those languages should be used in any liturgical services.

    Third, find any reference to any Byzantine or Coptic musicologist, historian or scholar that says we adopted Byzantine music from them. We didn't borrow anything. We assimilated very, very popular hymns that were found in the entire Christian world. Do you think the Syrians are going to get rid of their Omonogenis and Tou dipno because the Byzantines persecuted them?

    And if you are going to continue to correlate Greco-Bohairic as a destroying our heritage, you are greatly ignoring history, anthropology and linguistics. GB is a part of our Church and it is as authentic as OB. GB has nothing to do with Greek because the Greeks do not pronounce words like GB does. How can you possibly say you want to be truthful to our heritage, when you choose to ignore our bilingual heritage?

    And while Kephas' comment was sarcastic, some people believe Coptic is the only sacred language. These people fail to realize they are more Islamic/Arab then Coptic. Only Islam believes in a sacred language.
  • ophadeceophadece
    DEar GODlovesme and Michael Boutros,
    GOd did speak Coptic when the holy family fled to Egypt...
    OUjai
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=Remnkemi link=topic=11736.msg140567#msg140567 date=1309468009]
    And while Kephas' comment was sarcastic, some people believe Coptic is the only sacred language. These people fail to realize they are more Islamic/Arab then Coptic. Only Islam believes in a sacred language.


    So true. I have never understood, nor will I ever understand, people's hang ups with language. Really, who cares? Tongues has always been considered the least of all the gifts from the Holy Spirit. What is important is praying and praising with understanding.

    [quote author=ophadece link=topic=11736.msg140570#msg140570 date=1309469224]
    DEar GODlovesme and Michael Boutros,
    GOd did speak Coptic when the holy family fled to Egypt...
    OUjai


    God also spoke Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek having been born, raised and lived in Palestine.
  • imikhailimikhail

    Do you have any proof whatsoever that these so-called poor linguistic Greek hymns were written by rookies? Do you have any proof that these are actually poor linguistic hymns?

    Dear Reminkimi,

    Of course I have proof. I would never post anything or make any claim unless I have the research to back it up.

    As to how the authors were rookies, please read about the authors of the Madaye7 in the Kiahk psalmody the Coptic/Arabic one. Also read about Sarkis the author of aribsalin.

  • imikhailimikhail

    Non-standard Greek hymns, as any social linguist will tell you, is only a linguistic variety.

    Can you please name one that talked about this and where can I find that work?

    A variety is not more authentic than the standard.

    I am not aure I follow you on this one. Are you saying that the variety negates authenticity?
  • imikhailimikhail

    In fact, the only way a language becomes standard is politics, not linguistic authenticity, validity, or superiority.

    I disagree.

    Religion is a major factor in language evolution. Take Arabic as an example.
  • imikhailimikhail

    Second by your definition, we should not use Arabic because the Arabs persecuted the Copts much more than Byzantium did.

    I am not sure who persecuted the Copts the most. I personally believe the Byzantines did more harm to the Copts than Arabs.

    In any case, I am not sure what definition of mine you are referring to. We do not devise of new hymns in Arabic, we only translate existing Coptic hymns. In fact, I think there would be great resistance in producing Arabic hymns to be used in the litrgical prayers. Yet we are very lenient in using the Greek hymns from other Churches.

    I believe the reason for this is that the majority of Copts are ignorant of their language and cannot differentiate between Coptic and Greek.

    And if you really want to get picky, the British occupied Egypt, the French, the Ottomans. So none of those languages should be used in any liturgical services.

    I never suggested this .. is this what you would like to propose?
  • imikhailimikhail

    Third, find any reference to any Byzantine or Coptic musicologist, historian or scholar that says we adopted Byzantine music from them.

    I do not need to find anyone with such background. All you need to do is listen to the Coptic hymns and the modern Greek ones we borrowed in the 19th century. The Byzantine music is very distinct than the Coptic ones that is characterized of its long tone. The Byzantine tone is characterized with the high and low pitch. Take khristoc Anesti as an example by comparing the long (Coptic) tune and the short (Byzantine or Roomi) one.

    We didn't borrow anything.

    Absolutely incorrect factually and historically. Get me any manuscript older than the 18th century that has Tolitos .

    We assimilated very, very popular hymns

    Wrong again. We have kept the Roomi melody intact as borrowed from the Byzantines. Aside from pronunciation, compare eepartanos ()

    Not sure what you mean by "very, very popular hymns". Are we treating hymns like worldly songs to call some hymns popular and other not so popular.


  • imikhailimikhail

    Do you think the Syrians are going to get rid of their Omonogenis and Tou dipno because the Byzantines persecuted them?

    First, I am not a Syrian so I cannot speak of the Syrians.

    Second, what evidence do you have that omojanees is a Byzantene hymn. There are scholars, like Abouna Shenouda Maher, who says that this hymn was written by St Athansius himself.
  • imikhailimikhail

    And if you are going to continue to correlate Greco-Bohairic as a destroying our heritage, you are greatly ignoring history, anthropology and linguistics.

    I guess the answer to this issue relies on what is authentic. For me personally, an invention is not authentic. When there are vast manuscripts that point to the authenticity of OB, and there is a manuscript that describes how GB was invented, then I would side with the manuscripts of OB.

    GB is a part of our Church and it is as authentic as OB.

    This is your own opinion and you are entitled to it.
  • imikhailimikhail

    GB has nothing to do with Greek because the Greeks do not pronounce words like GB does.

    You need to read the book "Al Adella Al Rabteya" to understand the history behind GB.

    How can you possibly say you want to be truthful to our heritage, when you choose to ignore our bilingual heritage

    Do not put words in my mouth. When did I deny the fact that there were multiple languages that existed in Egypt at any one time.?
  • imikhailimikhail
    1
  • imikhailimikhail

    And while Kephas' comment was sarcastic, some people believe Coptic is the only sacred language. These people fail to realize they are more Islamic/Arab then Coptic. Only Islam believes in a sacred language.


    Of course I know he was trying to be funny. Yet, he mentioned some good facts:

    Jesus did speak Coptic while he was in Egypt
    St Mary spoke Coptic while she was in Egypt
    St Joseph spoke Coptic while he was in Egypt
    The Apostle spoke Coptic on Pentecost day according to the book of Acts

    How about these people also who spoke Coptic:

    Moses, Joseph, the 12 tribes of Israel, St Mark, the Martyrs, the sains and the confessors.

    Yes, Coptic is a beautiful language that has been blessed.

  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=11736.msg140585#msg140585 date=1309476341]

    And while Kephas' comment was sarcastic, some people believe Coptic is the only sacred language. These people fail to realize they are more Islamic/Arab then Coptic. Only Islam believes in a sacred language.


    Of course I know he was trying to be funny. Yet, he mentioned some good facts:

    Jesus did speak Coptic while he was in Egypt (and Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek while in Palestine)
    St Mary spoke Coptic while she was in Egypt (and Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek while in Palestine)
    St Joseph spoke Coptic while he was in Egypt (and Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek while in Palestine)
    The Apostle St. Mark spoke Coptic on Pentecost day according to the book of Acts tradition

    How about these people also who spoke Coptic (in addition to):

    Moses (spoke Hebrew), Joseph (spoke Hebrew), the 12 tribes of Israel (spoke Hebrew), St Mark (repetition), the Martyrs (of the Coptic Church (depending on the era)), the sains and the confessors (of the Coptic Church (depending on the era)).

    Yes, Coptic is a all languages are beautiful language that has been blessed.




    There. Fixed that for you.

    P.S. Greek was the language of commerce for centuries (starting from the time of the compilation of the Septuagint to well into the first 5-6 centuries of the Church)
  • imikhailimikhail
    Oh thanks Kephas, but I like my original better. :D
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    Even if it isn't accurate?
  • imikhailimikhail
    Well what inaccuracies you are referring to?

  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    Incompleteness = inaccurate. You have been selective in the languages that particular individuals spoke. And the notion of a language being 'blessed' is ridiculous.
  • imikhailimikhail

    Incompleteness = inaccurate. You have been selective in the languages that particular individuals spoke. And the notion of a language being 'blessed' is ridiculous.

    The discussion revolved around the Coptic language. You made fun of Coptic, and I said that while you were ridiculing it, you actually made some valid points.

    I commended you on it and added some facts. Why should I have to talk about other languages when Coptic was the language being discussed?

    And the notion of a language being 'blessed' is ridiculous.

    That is your own opinion and you are entitled to it.
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    Where did I make fun of Coptic? If I'm ridiculing anything, it's idiots who seem to think that Coptic is the be all end all when it comes to languages. Coptic is a language, like any other language: used as a means of communication. Nothing more. As unfortunate as it may be, Coptic is an all but dead language, like Latin. It is used almost exclusively for liturgical purposes. Some people can't seem to let that go.
  • micmekmicmek
    I love your enthusiasm guys about discussing the history of religious linguistics. But my question is left unanswered... hmmmm...

    Sooo.. I went myself and ventured into getting a few translations.

    So here are the translations I have found so far:
    Spanish


    1) Alabemos al Señor, porque el del la gloria, fue glorificado.
    (Let us praise...)

    Chorus:
    El ascendió a los cielos, y nos ha enviado el Paraclete. Espíritu de la verdad el Consolador. Amen, Alleluia.
    (He ascended....)

    2) El hizo los dos en uno, que es el cielo y la tierra.
    (He made the two...)
    3) Vienen todas las naciones, para adorar a Jesucristo.
    (Come all you nations....)
    4) Esto es Dios, nuestro Salvador, y el Señor de todos al mundo.
    (This is God...)
    5) Trinidad en uno y uno en la trinidad, el Padre el Hijo y el Espíritu Santo.
    Espíritu de la verdad, el Consolador. Amen, Alleluia.
    (Trinity in one....)

    Italian


    1) Lodiamo il signore perche con la gloria si glorificò.
    (Let us praise...)

    Chorus:
    Sali nell'alto dei cieli e ci mandò il Paraclito. Lo Spirito della verità il consolatore Amen Alleluia.
    (He ascended....)

    2) Fece i due in uno, cioè il cielo e la terra.
    (He made the two...)
    3) Venite o tutti i popoli per inginocchirci a Gesù Cristo.
    (Come all you nations....)
    4) Questo è Dio nostro salvatore, e Dio di ogni corpo.
    (This is God...)
    5) Trinità in uno, e uno in trinità, il Padre, il Figlio e lo Spirito Santo.
    Lo Spirito della verità il consolatore Amen Alleluia.
    (Trinity in one....)

    Dutch


    1) Laten wij de Heer prijzen, want Hij is met de glorie verheerlijkt.
    (Let us praise...)

    Chorus:
    Hij is opgevaren ten hemel en zond tot ons de Parakliet, Geest der Waarheid de Trooster, Amen Halleluja.
    (He ascended....)

    2) Hij heeft de twee tot één gemaakt, dit zijn de hemel en de aarde.
    (He made the two...)
    3) Komt alle volkeren, om te knielen voor Jezus Christus.
    (Come all you nations....)
    4) Dit is God onze Verlosser, en de Heer van iedereen.
    (This is God...)
    5) De Drie zijn Eén, en de Ene is Drie: de Vader en de Zoon, en de Heilige
    Geest, de Geest der Waarheid, Amen Halleluja.
    (Trinity in one....)

    Hope other people & churches benefit from this.
    God Bless
    Please keep me in your prayers
  • joegjoeg
    [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=11736.msg140602#msg140602 date=1309495856]
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    Where did I make fun of Coptic? If I'm ridiculing anything, it's idiots who seem to think that Coptic is the be all end all when it comes to languages. Coptic is a language, like any other language: used as a means of communication. Nothing more. As unfortunate as it may be, Coptic is an all but dead language, like Latin. It is used almost exclusively for liturgical purposes. Some people can't seem to let that go.


    I don't particularly understand this aggressive anti-Coptic attitude on the other end of the spectrum. Coptic should be more to us than just a "dead language," it's the language of our forefathers, and many of our liturgical prayers and rites are in Coptic. I am no Coptic scholar, but as a Copt, Coptic has a special esteemed place in my heart. How many of the martyrs in our Church spoke Coptic? How many great beacons of Orthodoxy spoke Coptic?

    A middle ground should be struck. Yes, Coptic is a language, but if you feel as though it is just a common "means for communication," you're missing something.
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    I'm sorry... what?! 'Aggressive anti-Coptic attitude'? Is that a joke?

    [quote author=JG link=topic=11736.msg140610#msg140610 date=1309509151]
    Yes, Coptic is a language, but if you feel as though it is just a common "means for communication," you're missing something.


    Care to further elucidate what you mean? What, pray tell, am I missing?
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