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Free Will and God

liftmyheart
edited December 1969 in Youth Corner
Did Judas have Free Will? If so, then why did Jesus know what he was going to do? Also, it seems that Judas was created for the sole intention of betraying Jesus; does God then, create people to play a specific role?

Comments

  • Pharaoh714Pharaoh714
    God does not create people to do a specific thing like you are referring to, neither did He create Judas Iscariot to betray Him.. But God is all knowing, He is present out of time and can see the Future and Past... He can see what Judas will chose... as He can see what the Romans/Jews will do to Him on the Cross.

    What Judas did was his own will and desire.. God just knows what He will chose since He can see the future (but doesn't mean God made Him do the sin).
  • liftmyheart
    That is a confusing concept. Does that mean, when we are given afflictions, that God already knows our outcomes to these afflictions? If so, why then, does God not lower the severity of the affliction in some cases where many people commit suicide/resort to wrongful ends. I thought we were not given anything we could not handle?
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    God does not give us afflictions. Rather, He allows them to happen because 'the testing of your faith worketh out patience' (James 1:3). Additionally, 'though ye have been grieved in diverse temptations, in order that the testing of your faith, much more precious than perishing gold, though it is being tested by fire, might be found to praise and honor and glory in the revelation of Jesus Christ' (1 Peter 1:6-7).

    With every temptation and affliction, God gives us the means to overcome it. It's like the man drowning in the sea. A passing boat throws the man a life preserver and the man may either choose to take it or not. If he does not and drowns, how is it the fault of the boat who threw the life preserver in the first place? We are never given more than we can handle, but that does not mean that we do not have to put up a fight and give it our all. God works with us to help us overcome anything, we just have to believe and pray.
  • CopticSoldierCopticSoldier
    [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=11731.msg140308#msg140308 date=1309195623]
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    God does not give us afflictions. Rather, He allows them to happen because 'the testing of your faith worketh out patience' (James 1:3). Additionally, 'though ye have been grieved in diverse temptations, in order that the testing of your faith, much more precious than perishing gold, though it is being tested by fire, might be found to praise and honor and glory in the revelation of Jesus Christ' (1 Peter 1:6-7).

    With every temptation and affliction, God gives us the means to overcome it. It's like the man drowning in the sea. A passing boat throws the man a life preserver and the man may either choose to take it or not. If he does not and drowns, how is it the fault of the boat who threw the life preserver in the first place? We are never given more than we can handle, but that does not mean that we do not have to put up a fight and give it our all. God works with us to help us overcome anything, we just have to believe and pray.


    Hi Κηφᾶς,

    I was just wondering about whether or not you would consider parts of your post as semantics rather than a defined opinion.  It seems to me that God is quite happy to be seen as the cause of tribulations in the sense that he admonishes us or preens us for more growth; in the Old Testament He calls Nebuchadnezzar His servant when He sends him to correct Israel.  In the dialogues of the book of Job He never once says the devil sent the tribulation when challenged and He was quite happy for the event to be seen as His own doing and not ascribed to any other.

    King David also speaks affectionately about the admonition of the Lord saying 'Your rod and Your staff they comfort me'.

    What do you think?

    Please pray for me,

    LiD
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    I draw my line of reasoning from what St. James teaches: 'Let no one when he is tempted be saying, 'I am tempted of God', for God is incapable of being tempted of evils, and He Himself tempteth no one. But each is tempted when he is drawn away and enticed by his own desire.' (James 1:13-14).

    Perhaps temptations and afflictions are different, but I tend to view them in the same light. In the case of Nebuchadnezzarer being God's servant, or even the case of Satan in the book of Job, certainly we are all God's servants. However, we are all still free to do as we wish. The events, as they occur, show that God is sovereign, and that He permits evil to befall individuals or nations, but He is not the artificer. It is a result of the evilness of man and the envy of the devils.

    Certainly God does discipline us as a loving child using '[His] rod and [His] staff' to comfort us (which, to me, is more poetry). But this discipline is a result of us opting to remove ourselves from His presence and refusing to accept His grace. As a result, what good can possibly befall us if we choose to turn our backs from the 'Father of lights' who provides us 'every good gift and every perfect gift' which 'is from above'?

    What are your thoughts?
  • liftmyheart
    By allowing certain things to happen, is he not also in a way giving someone affliction? I don't understand...
  • JoshuaaJoshuaa

    GOD knows the hearts and minds of all but you are left with options according to free will. Eve chose to believe the serpent in innocence, and the serpent took advantage of the innocence. Likewise, Satan convinced other angels to go with him even when those angels where with GOD.
  • abrahamfabrahamf
    http://docs.com/CQP2

    It's a quick read, but is VERY insightful!!!
  • CopticSoldierCopticSoldier
    [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=11731.msg140485#msg140485 date=1309361361]
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    I draw my line of reasoning from what St. James teaches: 'Let no one when he is tempted be saying, 'I am tempted of God', for God is incapable of being tempted of evils, and He Himself tempteth no one. But each is tempted when he is drawn away and enticed by his own desire.' (James 1:13-14).

    Perhaps temptations and afflictions are different, but I tend to view them in the same light. In the case of Nebuchadnezzarer being God's servant, or even the case of Satan in the book of Job, certainly we are all God's servants. However, we are all still free to do as we wish. The events, as they occur, show that God is sovereign, and that He permits evil to befall individuals or nations, but He is not the artificer. It is a result of the evilness of man and the envy of the devils.

    Certainly God does discipline us as a loving child using '[His] rod and [His] staff' to comfort us (which, to me, is more poetry). But this discipline is a result of us opting to remove ourselves from His presence and refusing to accept His grace. As a result, what good can possibly befall us if we choose to turn our backs from the 'Father of lights' who provides us 'every good gift and every perfect gift' which 'is from above'?

    What are your thoughts?

    I'm not really sure, I believe that St James is giving us a significant revelation about the nature and character of God but I don't think that we can extend this in such a way to say that evil happens simply because God 'allows' it. God has more authority than this and takes ultimate responsibility (not accountability) for why things happen to us and no doubt that for all the evil things that do unfortunately happen because there will be some kind of wisdom into why God wanted things to be that way.

    God bless,

    LiD

    {I edited this post because I really didn't like the way I spoke about God, I hope no one was offended. May God forgive me.}
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    From St. John Chrysostom's Homily 1 on the Statues

    14. For of the diversified and manifold affliction which befalls the saints, I have reasons eight in number to declare unto your love. Therefore let all direct themselves to me with the strictest attention, knowing that there will be no pardon nor excuse left us hereafter for stumbling at the things which happen, if after all, when there are so many reasons, we are just as much perplexed and disturbed as if there were not one to be found.

    The first reason then is, that God permits them to suffer evil, that they may not too easily be exalted into presumption, by the greatness of their good works and miracles    .

    The second, that others may not have a greater opinion of them than belongs to human nature, and take them to be gods and not men.

    The third, that the power of God may be made manifest, in prevailing, and overcoming, and advancing the word preached, through the efficacy of men who are infirm and in bonds.

    The fourth, that the endurance of these themselves may become more striking, serving God, as they do, not for a reward; but showing even such right-mindedness as to give proof of their undiminished good will towards Him after so many evils.

    The fifth, that our minds may be wise concerning the doctrine of a resurrection. For when you see a just man, and one abounding in virtue, suffering ten thousand evils, and thus departing the present life, you are altogether compelled, though unwillingly, to think somewhat of the future judgment; for if men do not suffer those who have laboured for themselves, to depart without wages and recompense; much more cannot God design, that those who have so greatly laboured should be sent away uncrowned. But if He cannot intend to deprive those of the recompense of their labours eventually, there must needs be a time, after the end of the life here, in which they will receive the recompense of their present labours.

    The sixth, that all who fall into adversity may have a sufficient consolation and alleviation, by looking at such persons, and remembering what sufferings have befallen them.

    The seventh, that when we exhort you to the virtue of such persons, and we say to every one of you, "Imitate Paul, emulate Peter," ye may not, on account of the surpassing character of their good works, slothfully shrink from such an imitation of them, as deeming them to have been partakers of a different nature.

    The eighth, that when it is necessary to call any blessed, or the reverse, we may learn whom we ought to account happy, and whom unhappy and wretched.

    These then are the reasons; but it is necessary to establish them all from the Scriptures, and to show with exactness that all that has been said on this subject is not an invention of human reasoning, but the very sentence of the Scriptures. For thus will what we say be at once more deserving of credit, and sink the deeper into your minds.

    15. That tribulation then is profitable to the saints, that they may exercise moderation and lowliness, and that they may not be puffed up by their miracles and good works, and that God permits it for this end; we may hear David the prophet, and Paul saying the same. The former says, "It is good for me, Lord, that I have been in trouble, that I might learn your statutes:" and the latter having said, "I was caught up into the third heaven, and" transported to Paradise, goes on to say, "And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me." What can be clearer than this? "That I might not be exalted above measure," for this reason, says he, God permitted "the messengers of Satan to buffet me;" by messengers of Satan, indeed, he means not particular demons, but men ministering for the devil, the unbelievers, the tyrants, the heathens, who perseveringly molested, and unceasingly worried him. And what he says is just this: "God was able to repress these persecutions and successive tribulations; but since I had been caught up into the third heaven, and transported to Paradise, lest through the abundance of these revelations I might be lifted up and think much of myself, he permitted these persecutions, and suffered these messengers of Satan to buffet me with persecutions and afflictions, that I might not be too much exalted." For although Paul and Peter, and all that are like them, be holy and wonderful men, as indeed they are, yet they are but men, and require much caution lest they should be too easily exalted; and as saints more than others. For nothing is so apt to exalt to presumption as a conscience full of good works, and a soul that lives in confidence. To the end, therefore, that these might suffer nothing of this kind, God permitted that there should be temptations and tribulations; these being powerful to keep them down, and to persuade to the exercise of moderation in all things.

    16. That this very particular also contributes much to the showing forth of God's power, you may learn even from the same Apostle, who told us the former. In order that you may not say, (what indeed unbelievers think), that God in permitting this, is some infirm being, and suffers such persons to be continually afflicted, from not being able to deliver His own from dangers: this very thing, I say, observe how Paul has demonstrated by means of these events, showing not only that the events were far from accusing Him of weakness, but that they proved His power more strikingly to all. For having said, "There was given me a thorn in the flesh; a messenger of Satan to buffet me," and having thus signified his repeated trials, he goes on to add, "For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me; and He said unto me, My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is perfected in weakness." 2 Corinthians 12:8-9 "My power," He means, "is seen then when you are in weakness; and yet through you, who seem to grow weak, the word preached is magnified, and is sown in all quarters." When therefore he was led to the dungeon, after having received a great number of stripes, he took prisoner the keeper of the prison. Acts 16:24 His feet were in the stocks, and his hands in the chain; and the prison shook at midnight while they were singing hymns. See you, how His power was perfected in weakness? If Paul had been at large, and had shaken that building, the thing would not have been so wonderful. "For this reason," He says, "remain bound; and the walls shall be shaken on every side, and the prisoners shall be loosed; in order that My power may appear the greater, when through you, confined and in fetters, all that are in bonds shall be loosed." This very circumstance then it was which at the time astounded the keeper of the prison, that being so forcibly confined, he, through prayer alone, prevailed to shake the foundations, and throw open the doors of the prison, and to unbind all the prisoners. Nor is this the only occasion. But with Peter too, and Paul himself, as well as the other disciples, one may see this occurring constantly; and in the midst of persecution, the grace of God ever flourishing, and appearing by the side of the tribulations, and thus proclaiming His power. Wherefore He says, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is perfected in weakness."

    Source (Emphasis mine)

    St. John Chrysostom also uses the word 'permits'. I'm not arguing that God is not sovereign; merely that He is not the artificer of tribulation.
  • CopticSoldierCopticSoldier
    [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=11731.msg140549#msg140549 date=1309452944]
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    St. John Chrysostom also uses the word 'permits'. I'm not arguing that God is not sovereign; merely that He is not the artificer of tribulation.


    Thank you for the beautiful quotation; I didn't understand all of it in my first reading but I hope to come back to it.  There are two things which now come to mind the first is that the dialogue in St James and St John are people speaking about God and His judgements rather than God speaking about Himself.  I make this distinction because I think that the important point about God's sovereignty would obviously be proclaimed by none less than God Himself either in the mouths of the prophets or in His dialogue with Job.

    The case where St James in his passage writes that God is not the source or the same in the beautiful passage of St John which you've quoted above; this passage is offered as a defence against people who ascribe corrupt and wicked things to God (much like my base self who ironically made a point which St James and John were specifically trying to correct).

    Please pray for me,

    LiD
  • liftmyheart
    Guys... If God can see the future and the past, then does he know if we are going to sin in the future and all that?
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=liftmyheart link=topic=11731.msg140701#msg140701 date=1309625411]
    Guys... If God can see the future and the past, then does he know if we are going to sin in the future and all that?


    Yes.
  • liftmyheart
    So isn't that also in a way saying that all of our lives are predestined -_-?
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=liftmyheart link=topic=11731.msg140709#msg140709 date=1309629470]
    So isn't that also in a way saying that all of our lives are predestined -_-?


    No. The reason is that God stands outside time. Thus, there is no such thing as past, present and future for Him, everything just IS. Now, when it comes to predestination, it implies that everything has been written down and we cannot change it. That is not the case as predestination means we are not free to choose. God has not made the decision for us, that is what is important to remember. God has left the decision for us, and we freely choose to sin.

    Here's an analogy: You are on the top of a hill and you see a car coming around a curve beneath you. On the other side of a hill, you see that there is a giant boulder in the road. Now, you know that if the driver of the car does not slow down, they will get into an accident. You try to signal to the driver but they do not pay attention and end up getting into an accident. Did you cause the accident? Of course not. The same thing happens with us and God. God knows that we are going to sin. He sends us signs to avoid it, but if we ignore the signs, we sin. God doesn't make us sin. We sin because we chose to.

    Make sense?
  • SYSY
    I in no way have as much knowledge as the rest of you, but here is my 2 cents :

    God has given us (as humans) free will back during the time of Adam and Eve.
    He was deciding for us untill Adam and Eve decided to have a choice and eat from the tree.
    Eating from the tree meant they wanted free will and wanted to experience and know beyond what God wanted them to. And God, because he loves us so much he decided to grant us that will.

    That doesnt mean that he abandoned us or anything but he gives us chances to choose him again and again when he picks us up and we reconcile with him, take our cross and follow him. He is constantly calling us to choose him, regardless of where we are.
    Also when christ died on the cross for us, he gave us another chance to "choose him" over sin and go to the kingdom of heaven.

    Also,

    God knows the sort of heart a person has or a person has developed and knows what that heart may progress to.
    At baptism, we put on "the new man" and were children of God. As we grew older and exercised free will and gained "knowledge", some of  us fell into sin and became like Judas. Hence, it is our free will and our actions that took the heart of the new man turned in into the sinner.
    Sometimes we exploit God's love and take advantage over his will to forgive us and rescue us from our own downfall through sin and that is also when we become like Judas.

    I think if you look at Judas and that whole event, consider that God had initiall planned the whole thing and we dont know everything just yet.


    I hope I was able to add something (Sorry for writing an essay) . 

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