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Evidence for female leadership in Church

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  • andrew8345andrew8345
    Dear imikhail,

    Thank you for putting in the time to clarify any confusion.
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    I was supposed to meet with the professor today. He was late to the appointment so we had to reschedule. However, he brought up new 'evidence.'

    1. St. Thecla: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thecla
    2. Theodora Episcopa: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episcopa_Theodora

    He claimes Thecla was an apostle with Paul and baptized with him etc. As for Theodora, well the problem lies in her name! She is called a bishop.

    Any responses?
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11375.msg137713#msg137713 date=1305078155]
    I was supposed to meet with the professor today. He was late to the appointment so we had to reschedule. However, he brought up new 'evidence.'

    1. St. Thecla: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thecla
    2. Theodora Episcopa: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Episcopa_Theodora

    He claims Thecla was an apostle with Paul and baptized with him etc. As for Theodora, well the problem lies in her name! She is called a bishop.

    Any responses?


    My original post got flagged as spam. . .
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    I'm not sure I see this 'evidence' as damaging at all. I think we both can agree that there were female apostles though they had not priestly functions. So that takes care of the issue of St. Thecla. As for Episcopa Theodora, the answer, I feel can be found in the wiki article you linked to:


    Critics of this argument point out, however, that feminizations of clerical titles have traditionally been associated with the wives of clergy. Presbytera and diakonissa are, for instance, used honorifically to this day to refer to the wives of presbyters and deacons in the Eastern Catholic Churches and in Eastern Orthodoxy. Since the ancient Catholic Church had married bishops before the discipline of celibate clergy was promulgated, the title episcopa often referred to the wife of a bishop.[2] In the case of the 9th century Theodora, she might have been given the honorary title of episcopa because of her son's position as the Bishop of Rome.

    (Emphasis mine)

    In the end, your professor already has a preconceived idea in his head and is just looking for 'evidence' to support it. The 2000 year history of the Church would indicate otherwise.
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=11375.msg137717#msg137717 date=1305081211]
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    I'm not sure I see this 'evidence' as damaging at all. I think we both can agree that there were female apostles though they had not priestly functions. So that takes care of the issue of St. Thecla. As for Episcopa Theodora, the answer, I feel can be found in the wiki article you linked to:


    Critics of this argument point out, however, that feminizations of clerical titles have traditionally been associated with the wives of clergy. Presbytera and diakonissa are, for instance, used honorifically to this day to refer to the wives of presbyters and deacons in the Eastern Catholic Churches and in Eastern Orthodoxy. Since the ancient Catholic Church had married bishops before the discipline of celibate clergy was promulgated, the title episcopa often referred to the wife of a bishop.[2] In the case of the 9th century Theodora, she might have been given the honorary title of episcopa because of her son's position as the Bishop of Rome.

    (Emphasis mine)

    In the end, your professor already has a preconceived idea in his head and is just looking for 'evidence' to support it. The 2000 year history of the Church would indicate otherwise.


    Yeah I got the counter argument mentioned in the wiki article. Just not sure how accurate that is? I've never heard of the wives of clergy being given clerical titles in the feminine form. Are there any other examples? Any in the Coptic church?
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    In the Coptic Church, I don't believe so. It is done to this day in the Greek Orthodox Church. If you go to orthodoxchristianity.net you will find some women on there that are called presbytera.

    Here are some articles from OrthodoxWiki on the titles of Presbytera and Diakonissa.

    I'll see if I can find any other information.
  • mabsootamabsoota
    'presbytera' literally just means the wife of the priest, there are no clergy duties.
    its used just like the word 'tasoni' for us.
    i have several eastern orthodox friends so i know this is how it is in their churches.
  • dzheremi
    I have also heard "Khouria" used in Arabic for the same, but also without actual priestly duties.
  • mabsootamabsoota
    yes, 'khouria' is used in the antiochian church. it's an honourific title without any specific duties, although obviously being a priest's wife is a special job and honour in itself.
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    I finally had that discussion with my professor today. We were scheduled for 20 minutes but it turned into an hour long conversation! The same issues I raised to you all he raised with me. I am not going to bring in any more of the new evidence he brought up because I don't think it will be fruitful, rather I will continue to research this topic on my own. But please do continue to recommend sources.

    I would like your thoughts on one question he asked me that got at the heart of the whole conversation: What is at stake for you if women are leaders in the church?
  • George_Mina_Awad
    If it's alright, I have a question on a somewhat related note and from skimming through the 13 pages of this thread it doesn't seem like it's been addressed.

    In 1 Corinthians 14: 34-35 St. Paul writes, "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church."

    Why did he say that it's shameful for women to speak in the church? Even given imikhail's summary of the thread, doesn't that seem a little harsh?
  • IoannesIoannes
    [quote author=George_Mina_Awad link=topic=11375.msg137813#msg137813 date=1305259080]
    If it's alright, I have a question on a somewhat related note and from skimming through the 13 pages of this thread it doesn't seem like it's been addressed.

    In 1 Corinthians 14: 34-35 St. Paul writes, "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church."

    Why did he say that it's shameful for women to speak in the church? Even given imikhail's summary of the thread, doesn't that seem a little harsh?



    Because as man is created in the image of God, woman was created from man and is therefore subject to both God and man. The woman was deceived by the serpent, then deceived Adam. More importantly why does it seem acceptable for a woman to decorate her face like a clown or to wear immodest clothing? Seems kind of odd to be discussing women leading when they cannot even lead themselves by wearing the required Orthodox Christian clothing.

    It seems that many, not all, of our women have more in common with a street whore than with our Virgin Mother St. Mary, and now they complain about leadership in the church? Bring anyone to sin then your sin is compounded.
  • andrew8345andrew8345
    [quote author=Ioannes link=topic=11375.msg137854#msg137854 date=1305331262]
    It seems that many, not all, of our women have more in common with a street whore than with our Virgin Mother St. Mary, and now they complain about leadership in the church? Bring anyone to sin then your sin is compounded.


    A bit harsh?
  • servant33servant33
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=11375.msg137621#msg137621 date=1304853383]
    Sacraments are essential for salvation and cannot be performed unless there is a priest, deacon and laity but the first two must be males.


    lol thanks for the summary.

    Isn't there a story of a mother who was able to baptize her two sons with her blood when they were drowning. Goes with St. Peter Seal of the Martyrs I think.
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=George_Mina_Awad link=topic=11375.msg137813#msg137813 date=1305259080]
    If it's alright, I have a question on a somewhat related note and from skimming through the 13 pages of this thread it doesn't seem like it's been addressed.

    In 1 Corinthians 14: 34-35 St. Paul writes, "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church."

    Why did he say that it's shameful for women to speak in the church? Even given imikhail's summary of the thread, doesn't that seem a little harsh?


    [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=11375.msg137332#msg137332 date=1304527911]
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11375.msg137331#msg137331 date=1304527665]
    So you all seem to agree that women can have leadership roles.

    Now I will ask the same question I asked several times: How do we reconcile that with the passages of 1 Cor 14:33-35 and 1 Tim 2:8-15, if we say these passages are normative. According to these passages women should not have leadership roles or even speak in the assembly. So either these passages are case and time specific, or we need to change our current practices. Doesn't anyone see the contradiction? Most (if not all) of the church fathers' writings on this issue revolve around those two passages. What is ignored are all the descriptive passages of woman prophesying and being called apostles. How can one be an apostle or prophesy if they must keep silent?


    These verses must be put in their proper historical context. They do not exist in a vacuum. As far as I can tell, St. Paul request that women should remain silent in the context of the Church so they refrain from idle chatter and gossip. This also, implicitly, goes for men, though women are often (for better or for worse) associated with idle chatter and gossip.

    (Emphasis mine)
  • HolmesHolmes
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=servant33 link=topic=11375.msg137877#msg137877 date=1305355941]
    [quote author=imikhail link=topic=11375.msg137621#msg137621 date=1304853383]
    Sacraments are essential for salvation and cannot be performed unless there is a priest, deacon and laity but the first two must be males.


    lol thanks for the summary.

    Isn't there a story of a mother who was able to baptize her two sons with her blood when they were drowning. Goes with St. Peter Seal of the Martyrs I think.


    From the Synaxarium reading for Hator 29 about St. Peter the seal of the martyrs

    Before Pope Theonas' departure, he recommended that Abba Peter be his successor. When he was enthroned on the See of St. Mark, the church was enlightened by his teachings. It came to pass in the city of Antioch, that a man of high authority had agreed with Diocletian the Emperor, to return to paganism. That man had two children and because of him, their mother could not baptize them there. Therefore, she took them to Alexandria. On her way there, the sea was troubled by a violent storm and she was afraid that her two sons would drown and die without being baptized. She therefore dipped them in the sea three times saying, "In the Name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit," then she cut her breast and with her blood made the sign of the Holy Cross over their foreheads.

    Eventually, the troubled sea calmed down and she arrived safely to Alexandria with her sons. On the same day, she brought them to be baptized. Whenever, the Patriarch, St. Peter tried to baptize them, the water would solidify as stone. This happened three times. When he questioned her, she informed him of what had happened to her at sea. He marvelled and praised God saying, "That is what the church proclaims, that it is one baptism." Therefore, the baptism she performed in the sea was accepted by the Lord.

    This is an extreme situation, not the norm. This example is not supposed to be a viewed as the standard practice in the Church. This shows the Divine Economia.
  • imikhailimikhail
    One of the important and fundamental differences between Orthodox and Protestants is the way we view the Bible and the Church.

    We, as Orthodox, submit to the Bible and the Church and do not rationalize everything or say that the Church and the Bible should follow societal norms.

    We view that the Scriptures are the breath of God and thus we do not question what God had instituted. When we interpret and study the Bible we do not follow our minds or our own reflections. Rather we consult the Church Fathers and follow what the Church has been doing since its foundation.

    We must be careful of how others use the Bible verses. For some would use one verse and build a dogma around it. The Scriptures must be taken in its entirety rather than piecemeal.

    Pope Shenouda has talked about the danger of "the one verse" by which famous clergy fell into heresy.

    We, as Orthodox, submit our minds to the Bible and the Church rather submitting them to our rationale.

    We also must be careful not to take an exception and treat it as the norm - like the lady that baptized her children during the papacy of St Peter the seal of martyrs.

    May the Lord lead us and guide us through His Holy Spirit.
  • IoannesIoannes
    [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11375.msg137875#msg137875 date=1305352712]
    [quote author=Ioannes link=topic=11375.msg137854#msg137854 date=1305331262]
    It seems that many, not all, of our women have more in common with a street whore than with our Virgin Mother St. Mary, and now they complain about leadership in the church? Bring anyone to sin then your sin is compounded.


    A bit harsh?


    No.
  • George_Mina_Awad
    [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=11375.msg137878#msg137878 date=1305356502]
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=George_Mina_Awad link=topic=11375.msg137813#msg137813 date=1305259080]
    If it's alright, I have a question on a somewhat related note and from skimming through the 13 pages of this thread it doesn't seem like it's been addressed.

    In 1 Corinthians 14: 34-35 St. Paul writes, "Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church."

    Why did he say that it's shameful for women to speak in the church? Even given imikhail's summary of the thread, doesn't that seem a little harsh?


    [quote author=Κηφᾶς link=topic=11375.msg137332#msg137332 date=1304527911]
    + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=Unworthy1 link=topic=11375.msg137331#msg137331 date=1304527665]
    So you all seem to agree that women can have leadership roles.

    Now I will ask the same question I asked several times: How do we reconcile that with the passages of 1 Cor 14:33-35 and 1 Tim 2:8-15, if we say these passages are normative. According to these passages women should not have leadership roles or even speak in the assembly. So either these passages are case and time specific, or we need to change our current practices. Doesn't anyone see the contradiction? Most (if not all) of the church fathers' writings on this issue revolve around those two passages. What is ignored are all the descriptive passages of woman prophesying and being called apostles. How can one be an apostle or prophesy if they must keep silent?


    These verses must be put in their proper historical context. They do not exist in a vacuum. As far as I can tell, St. Paul request that women should remain silent in the context of the Church so they refrain from idle chatter and gossip. This also, implicitly, goes for men, though women are often (for better or for worse) associated with idle chatter and gossip.

    (Emphasis mine)


    Thank you. I asked a priest this question (because I hadn't yet gotten to read the responses here) and it was basically the exact same response.
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