What does it Mean to Be Coptic Orthodox?

GDay all.

I am a convert to the Coptic Orthodox Church. I was raised a pentecostal, but saw the errors of my church when studying some of the Church fathers writings.

A Question many people face is what does it mean when I say I am Coptic Orthodox?

Many people say that If your baptised Coptic Orthodox it makes you a Copt, i consider this Hogwash.

What am I?

I am an Australian Orthodox Christian. I attend a Coptic Orthodox Church because They Hold the keys of Salvation. I will never be a Copt, I am an Australian.

What frustrates me is that alot of those raised in the Church Confuse the Rite (Coptic) with the Culture (Copt). Its a problem which is causing alot of converts to stumble.

What are your thoughts?

Comments

  • the word "coptic" itself comes from the greek work "aegyptos" meaning egyptian. so coptic is more of an ethinicity, but we consider it the same thing as coptic orthodox since most people who are copts (direct descdants of the ancient egyptians, not arabs) are also coptic orthodox.
  • To be honest, I am more interested in your thoughts as a convert. What is it specifically about the confusion between the faith and the culture that is causing converts to stumble? Why did you not stumble as a convert yourself?
  • I think Fr. Peter will be chiming in any minute.

    If you read through his reflections, as a convert into the British Orthodox jurisdiction of the Coptic Orthodox Church, you will gain magnificent insight.  Others on this site:  Mabsoota, Ioannes, etc.

    There are several threads on the issue.

    I also believe there is deliberation within the Holy Synod of the Coptic Orthodox Church towards the establishment of an Australian Orthodox Church, similar to the French and British jurisdictions.
  • Coptic means different things depending on the context it is used in.

    Coptic refers to the last stage of the Egyptian language.

    It refers to the Church of Alexandria

    It refers to an Egyptian

    It refers to a member baptized in the Coptic Church

    It refers to the rite used in prayer

    It refers to the art and the architecture

    It refers to the music used in prayer

    It refers to writings of the Coptic fathers

    It refers to numbering of the Church canons

  • BTW, I am a Coptic.  I refuse to be called an Egyptian.
  • What do you say to people after they ask what Coptic is? "Google it"?
  • ilovesaintmark you probably fall under a the baptized category.
  • I don't know why, but this thread just reminded me of one time in my Arabic classes when I wrote (as part of a homework assignment to use new Arabic vocabulary) "The Coptic language is the last stage of the Egyptian language." The professor wrote on my paper in English "Is it?" and marked me down one point. :(

    Anyway...

    When people ask me what Coptic means I tell them that it is a language, and that the people who spoke the language and lived in the land of Egypt before the Arabs came are the Copts, and that today they are distinguished from the Arab-Muslim majority by their adherence to the Christian religion, in their own native church or a church that broke away from it.

    It generally takes longer than just saying "Egyptians", and is complicated by the fact that for a long time in the West the Ethiopian Orthodox were referred to as Copts for obvious historical/ecclesiastical reasons, but I guess not everything can be explained sufficiently in 30 seconds. If I were (ethnically) Coptic, I would be proud of such a long and complex history!
  • I live, breath, Coptic.  In all of the aspects of the word.

    I exist because of the Mercy of God.  I am fortunate to live as a Coptic as a result of the erudition, sacrifice, and martyrdom of my ancestors.  I have faith because I was taught the same as my ancestors through my ancestors.  I rejoice in my heritage because it is unparalleled by any on the face of the earth.

    I am Orthodox because I am Coptic.  If I had to give up being Coptic, I would let it pass.  However, I could never give up being Orthodox, that would be tantamount to giving up my soul.
  • You didn't answer my question, Sir.
  • I don't particularly care what Google says.

    I am only concerned with my soul as it seeks out its Maker.
    I am concerned with what my heart says to my Lord.

  • You still didn't answer my question! What do you tell people when they ask what Coptic means? That you're only concerned with your soul as it seeks the Maker? looool
  • I do tell them that.

    It doesn't make a difference what I say.  Each person has their own formula.
  • And I thought you were cool  ::)

    I'd like to know what other people say when asked what Coptic means.
  • I think Ophadece will have something eloquent to say.
  • + Irini nem ehmot,

    [quote author=lankyknight1990 link=topic=11126.msg134407#msg134407 date=1301370022]
    GDay all.

    I am a convert to the Coptic Orthodox Church. I was raised a pentecostal, but saw the errors of my church when studying some of the Church fathers writings.

    A Question many people face is what does it mean when I say I am Coptic Orthodox?

    Many people say that If your baptised Coptic Orthodox it makes you a Copt, i consider this Hogwash.

    What am I?

    I am an Australian Orthodox Christian. I attend a Coptic Orthodox Church because They Hold the keys of Salvation. I will never be a Copt, I am an Australian.

    What frustrates me is that alot of those raised in the Church Confuse the Rite (Coptic) with the Culture (Copt). Its a problem which is causing alot of converts to stumble.

    What are your thoughts?


    I agree completely with everything you've said. The only thing that matters is being Orthodox, regardless of rite or culture. Often you find this ethnocentrism in a number of the ethnic Orthodox churches. People are very proud of their culture and history, often at the expense of welcoming outsiders. They feel their ethnicity defines their orthodoxy, which can be a stumbling block for people who do wish to convert. This was something the Church at the time of the Apostles also faced (see the Council of Jerusalem in Acts 15). Hopefully there will be people and priests in the Church with the wisdom to help guide outsiders to the truth of Orthodoxy despite the ethnocentrism.
  • People asked in what way the culture makes converts stumble. Many converts I know personally have been death stared and even told to leave the church because they are Australian Western Converts, Many conservative Egyptians want the mass prayed solely in Arabic, and opposite the translation of the Liturgical texts.

    As for the discussions of an Australian Orthodox Church, it will not happen. The British Orthodox Church is a unique situation, being started by the Syrian Orthodox Church and then losing Contact only to regain communion with the Coptic Church. However The Australian convert community is not large enough to warrant a formation of an Australian Orthodox Church, not only that but It is considered Schismatic By the Church Priests and Bishops.

    From what I know is it was considered a few years ago. But It ended Quite badly.

    As a convert I just want to know I can go to a mass in English, and have even different tunes to the hymns that Fit my culture. The Greatest example of this is the burial Hymn during the divine liturgy, There is nothing at all in western culture that can even be slightly related to long one syllable hymns. For Orthodoxy to be successful in the West we must present it in a way that western people can understand.

    The best way i heard it explained, when St Mark came to egypt did he pray in Aramic? or in Coptic?
  • lankyknight1990,

    I don't think you realize how holy Arabic is? [sarcasm].  The Prophet Mohammed told us so [sarcasm].  O, we are not Muslim [revelation].

    Oh, I just remembered God is multi-lingual [revelation].

    I would also mention the jurisdictions of the:  French, Eritrean Orthodox Churches within the Coptic Church.

    I suspect, and am comforted by so many converts into the Coptic Church, that they are more Orthodox than myself and others.  They constitute a hope.
  • I agree completely with everything you've said. The only thing that matters is being Orthodox, regardless of rite or culture.

    Orthodox Churches are by definition traditional because they kept the Apostolic Tradition that reached them. It should be understood that each Orthodox Church's culture is also kept as an valued heritage throughout the centuries linking her to the time of her foundation.

    Many of them are in communion regardless of their traditional culture though. If you attend a Syrian Orthodox or a Greek Orthodox liturgy or prayer it will usually have a Syrian or a Greek component, respectively. This should add concreteness not confusion.

    I think it would be recommended that each church pastors cater for the current globalization phenomenon and serve scheduled weekly liturgies more in the language of the diaspora. This would not only help the new comers and welcome them but also help the second, third etc. generations to keep attending and participating as well - while encouraging and organizing church courses to keep her valued tradition alive, well tailored for each generation's benefit. This would prevent dissociating any Church from its well kept tradition.

    We should all deeply meditate on all the uses and benefits of why did the Holy Spirit grant the Apostles and their disciples the great gift of speaking in tongues.

    PS: ilovesaintmark, I believe Orthodox converts have usually a very strong faith. They have acquired a deep conviction reached after a long period of thought and experience.

    GBU


  • PS: ilovesaintmark, I believe Orthodox converts have usually a very strong faith. They have acquired a deep conviction reached after a long period of thought and experience.

    GBU

    Its not that we have very strong faith, we have just lived in heretical camps and we know the Church is the church because we learnt the hard way.

    Please pray for me and the other converts.
  • Personally I will reference myself in a variety of ways.

    Sometimes I will say I am an Orthodox priest, and then explain I am priest and pastor of a small Orthodox Church in Chatham which is part of the British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Church. (Or I will use some aspects of that description)

    To an ordinary person I might say I am British Orthodox, because they need to know that it is possible to be British and Orthodox.

    To a person who knows a bit about Orthodoxy I will say that I am in the British Orthodox Church which is a diocese of the Coptic Orthodox Church, or the Orthodox Church of Egypt, and I will explain that it is not possible to be properly Orthodox in a group that is not connected to the most ancient Orthodox Churches, and so even though it sounds strange we are British people who are part of the ancient Egyptian Church.

    If I am talking to Eastern Orthodox who want to worship with us then I say that we are a British community and diocese of the Coptic Orthodox Church, which is part of the Oriental Orthodox communion of Churches, and I will explain that our bishops have concluded that we have substantially the same faith. Romanians, for instance, are often aware that the Romanian Orthodox have also accepted that the Oriental Orthodox have the same faith as they do. Many Eastern Orthodox are not so concerned as long as they experience us as having Orthodox worship and Orthodox beliefs.

    I do not personally consider myself to be Coptic Orthodox, and prefer to speak of being British Orthodox within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate. I am first of all Orthodox, and of course I am British, but I am Coptic in the secondary sense of being part of the wider Coptic Orthodox jurisdiction, and to some extent part of the wider Coptic Orthodox community.
  • According to Dictionary.com. Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition.

    The definition of 'Copt' is

    "— n
    1. a member of the Coptic Church
    2. an Egyptian descended from the ancient Egyptians"

    Copt. Dictionary.com. Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition. HarperCollins Publishers. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Copt

    The definition of 'Coptic' is

    "— n
    1. an Afro-Asiatic language, written in the Greek alphabet but descended from ancient Egyptian. It was extinct as a spoken language by about 1600 ad  but survives in the Coptic Church

    — adj
    2. of or relating to this language
    3. of or relating to the Copts"

    Coptic. Dictionary.com. Collins English Dictionary - Complete & Unabridged 10th Edition. HarperCollins Publishers. http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Coptic
  • In the purest and most true Christian sense there is no such thing as nationality in Christianity.  St Paul taught and the early Christian's believed that this was the end of all social, ethnic, educational, elitist labels because in Christ there is neither Jew nor gentile, slave nor free, male nor female it went so far that there was no clergy vs. lay people, everyone in the church was an equal.  They would also say that there are Churches in cities and then nations but there was no such thing as a Church of a nation because Christ taught us that we are no longer citizens of any earthly power, we are now citizens of the Kingdom of God.  This power is given to us in baptism, where we normally say that we are born again but this is a corruption via translation, the bible actually says we receive the birth from above and its kind of like we're renouncing all human citizenship to be joined to God in His kingdom.  The early Christians lived this as a daily experience in the new true worship of the Eucharist, the celebration of the body of Lord, where all these things were experienced in a real way.

    Things today don't have this simplicity, mainly because Churches are governed in national or ethnic jurisdictions and each of us has become ethnocentric in the way that we worship, over time this has meant that church has tradition and history is remembered and explained in ethnic terms - right or wrong has been the way most Orthodox Churches have had to survive because of the subjection to Islam and the inability for most Orthodox Churches to mission or have any other real incentive to have a universal or collective way of identifying themselves and one another.

    When most of these Orthodox Christians arrived in lands of immigration their first instincts have been to worship with the ethnic divisions they they're used to.  Its quite disappointing that at one time there was only one family of Christians and now if we meet together we don't have a single liturgy that we can pray together nor do we do so very frequently.

    The result is that the term Copt should be understood as both an ethnic and religious term because it is both, it represents the native Church of Egypt including all its history secular and religious.  I personally hate the term and the way we use it but I understand that 1500 years of history is something which cannot be easily eroded.
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