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Sexual relations between husband and wife during lent

ZoxsasiZoxsasi
edited December 1969 in Faith Issues

I would like to know if it is against the Church rules for a husband and wife to have sexual relations during lent?

Is that considered breaking your fast? I understand during passion week, but what about the 40 days?
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Comments

  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    It depends entirely on the of instructions and in discussion with your spiritual father.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10935.msg132392#msg132392 date=1299603333]
    It depends entirely on the of instructions and in discussion with your spiritual father.


    This is going to be one interesting chat with your FoC.. isn't it.

    I gotta tell you, there's never a dull moment in the COC.. is there
  • axum
    husband and wife sleep separately during lent (55 days) according to the Ethiopian church .I did not know it depended on the individuals FOC .

    Q i have is how about secular music and alcohol then ?? In the Etoc even the drums which are the center of the Ethiopian Hymn are not beaten till christ rises from the dead .How is this in the coptic church ??
  • PopeKyrillosPopeKyrillos
    In the Coptic Church, we discourage alcohol all year-round and not just during lent. Anything that harms you is discouraged because we are called to respect the body since it is the temple of the holy spirit.

    PK
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    [quote author=PopeKyrillos link=topic=10935.msg132855#msg132855 date=1300062232]
    In the Coptic Church, we discourage alcohol all year-round and not just during lent. Anything that harms you is discouraged because we are called to respect the body since it is the temple of the holy spirit.

    PK



    Hang on...

    Alcohol is siamee...its fasting. What harms you is excess...but anything in moderation is OK.
    I was ill and lost some blood even once, and I had to drink Guinness to help me.

    Beer is excellent for the removal/disolving of kidney stones also.

    I think we are approaching an Islamized Coptic Doctrine whenever I hear these things.
  • dzheremi
    But alcohol isn't banned, it is discouraged. Right? So I don't know how it is comparable to Islamic anything.

    I myself have enjoyed a drink or two in my past, but I more or less came around to see the wisdom in discouraging it (again, not banning it) on my own...and that is not a good lesson to have to learn on your own.  :-[
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    [quote author=dzheremi link=topic=10935.msg132863#msg132863 date=1300064367]
    But alcohol isn't banned, it is discouraged. Right? So I don't know how it is comparable to Islamic anything.

    I myself have enjoyed a drink or two in my past, but I more or less came around to see the wisdom in discouraging it (again, not banning it) on my own...and that is not a good lesson to have to learn on your own.  :-[


    Arrrgghh...

    I hate word-games. "We discourage it, but we don't ban it".

    The Coptic Orthodox Church is not a state. It is not a legal system. It doesn't ban anything. It doesn't tax alcohol or cigarattes..

    If it uses the term "discourage" its extremely serious.

  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10935.msg132871#msg132871 date=1300065916]
    Arrrgghh...

    I hate word-games. "We discourage it, but we don't ban it".

    The Coptic Orthodox Church is not a state. It is not a legal system. It doesn't ban anything. It doesn't tax alcohol or cigarattes..

    If it uses the term "discourage" its extremely serious.

    i am really puzzled here. i don't get what are you trying to tell us...
  • dzheremi
    I'm sorry, Zoxsasi. I wasn't trying to play a "word game" with you. I just don't think discouraging something is the same as banning it outright. From what I understand (please correct me if I am wrong), there are various actions that are effectively banned for Copts, in the sense that they will get you excommunicated because they place you outside the church. Somewhere below that but still very serious (as you said), there are other actions that are discouraged but will not place you outside of the church. Alcohol is apparently one of these things.

    I am basing my understanding on explanations like this one written by a Coptic priest.
  • copticuser20copticuser20
    My sunday school teacher would always ask us this question when we ask him if we could do something that is iffy "How will you benefit from it? Is there a better alternative that isn't controversial?" For example. We would ask "Can we watch Rated-R movies?" He would ask the question and we would be like: no we won't...yes there is.

    For drinking...will you benefit from it? is there a better alternative that isn't controversial? I know this is an amateur answer but it helps me a lot when deciding these things...
  • axum

    In the Coptic Church, we discourage alcohol all year-round and not just during lent.

    popekyr
    I think we belong to the same belief ...so alcohol is discouraged in our church too ESPECIALLY during lent.
  • Pharaoh714Pharaoh714
    If you speak Arabic:

  • sherrymikhail04sherrymikhail04
    [quote author=axum link=topic=10935.msg132882#msg132882 date=1300070321]

    In the Coptic Church, we discourage alcohol all year-round and not just during lent.

    popekyr
    I think we belong to the same belief ...so alcohol is discouraged in our church too ESPECIALLY during lent.


    Why should the issue of Alcohol be any different in Lent in terms of the rest of the year? It's seyami and harmless in moderation... it also depends on the environment you're in and it depends on the reason you would have alcohol any time of the year.. If it is for health reasons, I don't see why not have what you need like you normally would without lent..
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10935.msg132872#msg132872 date=1300066207]
    [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10935.msg132871#msg132871 date=1300065916]
    Arrrgghh...

    I hate word-games. "We discourage it, but we don't ban it".

    The Coptic Orthodox Church is not a state. It is not a legal system. It doesn't ban anything. It doesn't tax alcohol or cigarattes..

    If it uses the term "discourage" its extremely serious.

    i am really puzzled here. i don't get what are you trying to tell us...


    When the Church discourages something, its as good as banning it. Isn't it? But they don't use the word "ban".

    I would have preferred a bit more transparency.
  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    I am not sure what you mean? To discourage something is not the same as forbidding it.

    If you have a particular issue in mind you should discuss it with your spiritual father.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    [quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10935.msg132927#msg132927 date=1300124188]
    I am not sure what you mean? To discourage something is not the same as forbidding it.

    If you have a particular issue in mind you should discuss it with your spiritual father.


    OK. .this is a bit hard because you are not Egyptian Orthodox.

    But, if a priest says he doesn't "recommend" or he "discourages" something - its as good as "banned".

    Perhaps not for English orthodox Christians, but I think for Egyptian Orthodox Christians, this would be interpreted as being as good as banned.

    Fr. Peter, Just a small question:

    Have you visited Egypt? Ever? or perhaps lived there amongst Egyptians for a bit?

    I would recommend this for you. Not really in a monastery, but perhaps in a small town like shoubra.

    See how kids think there, and how a priest's opinion directs most things.
  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    I've visited Egypt, but I don't see much point in living there, apart from in a monastery for a while. I am not trying to become a rural Egyptian priest.

    It seems to me that from comments here and elsewhere the priest's views are generally ignored in the West. So I am not sure you can have it both ways. If a priest discourages people from attending Protestant worship but they do so anyhow then how can it be said that his discouragement is the same as a ban?
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10935.msg132928#msg132928 date=1300124389]
    OK. .this is a bit hard because you are not Egyptian Orthodox.

    But, if a priest says he doesn't "recommend" or he "discourages" something - its as good as "banned".

    Perhaps not for English orthodox Christians, but I think for Egyptian Orthodox Christians, this would be interpreted as being as good as banned.
    well that is right in the cultural mentality of people BUT it should never be taken as an absolute. Priests here when they speak on the mangalia during a liturgy, they speak to all ages...they will make it clear enough for people to not do that. but when speaking to smaller groups according to age, words will be different.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    For example, as an Egyptian Christian, if a priest told me that drinking wine (occassionally) is wrong, and he disapproves of it, for me I would have a psychological problem or conscience issue with drinking wine. I'd feel its as good as banned.

    I personally would recommend that you (fr Peter) do visit Egypt and spend sometime there - the reason is this:

    I think you would be able to reach out better to Coptic Orthodox Christians BETTER than an Egyptian Orthodox Priest outside of Egypt.

    The reason is that maybe they will view the Coptic priest's attitude as being "egyptian" and unable to distinguish between what is orthodox and what is cultural. Maybe that would help? At the very least, you'd be able to see how Priest's opinion have a strong effect on most of the youth and congregation. JUST OPINION! - can you imagine?!!

    The weirdest thing though, I have never seen or heard a Coptic Priest discourage going to a protestant church. That's a shame! They should outright ban it!!

    They have an opinion on dancing, drinking, smoking, smoking a shiesha, watching movies, dating, - EVERYTHING -except for going to protestant Churches.

    Minatasgeel,

    Thanks - I just read your post.
  • dzheremi
    I would hope that going to Protestant churches would be more readily banned (or discouraged, if they're effectively the same as Zoxsasi says) than watching movies or having a drink (not drinking to excess)! It is very, very confusing to me that it apparently is not so. But then I have been in Protestant churches...  :-\
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    [quote author=dzheremi link=topic=10935.msg132933#msg132933 date=1300125270]
    I would hope that going to Protestant churches would be more readily banned (or discouraged, if they're effectively the same as Zoxsasi says) than watching movies or having a drink (not drinking to excess)! It is very, very confusing to me that it apparently is not so. But then I have been in Protestant churches...  :-\



    lol..

    welcome to the club
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    Fr. Peter,

    This really worries me.. because I HAD reached a point of not taking the priest's comments seriously about certain things because I felt that what they were saying was influenced by culture.. not necessarily christianity. Obviously that was a LOOONNGG time ago.

    What sorted these issues out was my time in the catholic church where I could see clearly that what was forbidden/discouraged in the Coptic Church was also forbidden/discouraged in the catholic.
  • dzheremi
    Hmm. If you don't mind me asking, why did it matter to you what the Catholic Church also bans, Zoxsasi? I'm curious because I left that communion rather recently, and some of their stances and justifications for the stances they take (and even more for the changes in the stances they take) really left a bad taste in my mouth. It's not that they're wrong about everything, of course, but to my mind they are wrong in their approach to the faith such that anything they get right is already present in the true (Orthodox) Church, without any of the weight of wrong things dragging the truth down...
  • user00
    [quote author=axum link=topic=10935.msg132851#msg132851 date=1300059278]
    Q i have is how about secular music and alcohol then ?? In the Etoc even the drums which are the center of the Ethiopian Hymn are not beaten till christ rises from the dead .How is this in the coptic church ??


    Yes! In the Coptic church, we use the cymbals a lot, but we don't use them during weekdays of Great Lent.



    Just a comment on the alcohol issue (I'm not getting involved in the argument!), I found it funny when it was said that alcohol is considered "siyami" or "fasting food". So meat is no good for the fast, but alcohol is perfectly fine? The whole point why certain foods are not eaten during the fast is because they have a tendency to stimulate our desires and carnal lusts; now, are you telling me honestly that alcohol does not have the same effect?

    I don't want an answer, I'm just leaving some food for thought...
  • peterfarringtonpeterfarrington
    I am not a priest who insists on teetotalism, but I would 'discourage' my own congregation from consuming alcohol of any sort during Lent. It is not fasting. The usual canons all require abstaining from wine, and certainly in my own understanding for most people in the 21st century in the West this extends to all alcohol.
  • docmochou
    I was brought up to believe that sexual relationship between married couples during  fast is not permitted, however having discussed the subject with my FOC in our church and other priests Iwas told because in our faith and coptic traditions we have a lot of fasts if relationship between husband and wife is to stop then there will be only few weeks left of the year to have this relationship not forgetting also wednesdays and fridays it is up to the couple to decide .In my humble opinion if you are going to fast and fight the temptations satan about to put in your way do not give him a chance by thinking of having sex or not he will be the first to push you that way.
  • socoolbishoysocoolbishoy
    "Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, because of sexual immorality, let each man have his own wife, and let each woman have her own husband. Let the husband render to his wife the affection due her, and likewise also the wife to her husband. The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. But I say this as a concession, not as a commandment. For I wish that all men were even as I myself. But each one has his own gift from God, one in this manner and another in that. But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion."

    Married couples are NOT to have sexual relations except if told otherwise... usually the reason is because of the first year of marriage, the church gives a "free pass" for reproduction purposes, but recently I haven't heard that being instructed.

    also the church does not ban Alcohol, or there would not be communion... if we say the church bans Alcohol then she contradicts herself, by giving us "WINE" which has "ALCOHOL", or else it would be just Grape Juice if had no alcohol, and thats not what Jesus had in the last Supper, and not what He asked the Apostles to due in His remembrance. 

    we are taught to not lose our sobriety... but drinking, for example wine, is actually good for your health IN MODERATION... but I cant drink a bottle of wine, and say its for the sake of my health... so know where your moderation is... this was taught to me by Bishops, monks, and priests when I was researching about Alcohol.



    Neshkor Allah, akhadna el baraka.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10935.msg132935#msg132935 date=1300125906]
    Fr. Peter,

    This really worries me.. because I HAD reached a point of not taking the priest's comments seriously about certain things because I felt that what they were saying was influenced by culture.. not necessarily christianity. Obviously that was a LOOONNGG time ago.

    What sorted these issues out was my time in the catholic church where I could see clearly that what was forbidden/discouraged in the Coptic Church was also forbidden/discouraged in the catholic.
    it's not about you "not taking seriously" but it's about how we will judge others who do, in this case, drink.
  • ZoxsasiZoxsasi
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10935.msg132960#msg132960 date=1300138890]
    [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10935.msg132935#msg132935 date=1300125906]
    Fr. Peter,

    This really worries me.. because I HAD reached a point of not taking the priest's comments seriously about certain things because I felt that what they were saying was influenced by culture.. not necessarily christianity. Obviously that was a LOOONNGG time ago.

    What sorted these issues out was my time in the catholic church where I could see clearly that what was forbidden/discouraged in the Coptic Church was also forbidden/discouraged in the catholic.
    it's not about you "not taking seriously" but it's about how we will judge others who do, in this case, drink.


    Sorry, you've lost me.

    I was discussing the issue with respect to my personal experience.
  • minatasgeelminatasgeel
    [quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10935.msg132968#msg132968 date=1300140145]
    Sorry, you've lost me.

    I was discussing the issue with respect to my personal experience.

    well i guess i didn't mean to quote this specific response of yours but your idea in general.
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