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Comments
So traditional and filled with wisdom in everything that is done. even if there is nothing happening in church (meaning nothing being chanted) and you just sit there see the church filled with the sun's light, the altar open, the incense filling every place like we are in heaven and you just freeze and contemplate. I really missed the liturgies in egypt where you'd hear birds coming into church while the liturgy. and it doesn't matter how many kids or babies are there, everyone is paying attention and living the liturgy....it's like you can feel the angels calming that little child to pray and to let others pray. it's a true feeling of heaven.
I did go to a Russian Orthodox Liturgy Once. It was not short (like ours time-wise). there was a lot of movements but many things were kind of "hidden", behind closed doors at some point of time. also there was not much interaction between the people and the clergy. BUT, it was still really nice.
and more clearly put by Mabsoota
"lastly, i love protestants, and know many very sincere ones who find it hard to see the joy of the orthodox liturgy partly because of the blocks in their mind from their own traditions, but also partly because of the reaction of orthodox people who make them feel like ignorant pagans.
so, it's good to be respectful and kind to them, and focus on the beauty of our church rather than the things lacking in their churches."
Even in the holy liturgy - its priest-congregation-priest-deacons responses.. there's no time in the Liturgy to pray for yourself. When can you do that??
...
* God is already willing to forgive us our sins, if we ask for forgiveness and repent. When is there a time IN ANY of these prayers to even contemplate on our sins??? When can we have time to pray and ask for forgiveness for our sins anyway.
In addition to what mabsoota mentioned, there are also two great other opportunities during the Holy Liturgy, which are specially created for personal prayers, contemplations on our sins and repentence. I really benefit from these unique moments and I hope you will do as well :)
1) The procession of the Pauline incense and of the Praxis incense:
While the priest walks through the church, the people confess their sins during offering the incense amongst them. The church encourage people to start a personal prayer shortly before and during the procession.
Thats also the reason why the priest says the following passage (in silence) after he returns to the altar: "God who accepted to Him, the confession of the thief on the honored Cross, accept to you, the confession of your people, forgive them their sins for the sake of our Holy Name that is called upon us, Let it be according to your mercy, O Lord, and not according to our sins."
2) The prayer of the fraction:
While the priest is breaking the Bread, it is a good opportunity to (bow and to) contemplate about the Body of Christ and on the Love He showed to us on the cross, while we are not even worthy and sinning day after day... The church recommends us to use this time for repentance, that He may grant us, we sinners, the forgiveness of our sins.
And through the people not the 'dogma'*
:) Thanks
Please pray for me! (someone please actually notice this. It isn't a signature and I need your prayers)
Guys if we can please discuss this calmly in a Christian manner, that would be great. I benefit alot from this site, but I lose that if it just becomes arguments and yelling. (This hasn't happened but I feel some tension).
:) Thanks
Please pray for me! (someone please actually notice this. It isn't a signature and I need your prayers)
Sorry I despise this mixing of protestantism and Orthodoxy.
Although i understand your comparison, i feel your relation to the other religions is irrelevant and unnecessary
I think in the case of Protestantism, we can actually chart a de-evolution of sorts, because some of the early "reformers" at least preserved some of the doctrine that is shared by the apostolic churches (I've read quotes from Martin Luther that are full of praises for St. Mary, for instance, with no hint of the modern Protestant stance that "she was just some woman" or whatever). In the succeeding generations, each one has gone off onto his or her own path, away from the narrow path of Orthodoxy. Now "Protestant" includes everything from the relatively conservative Anglicans (and their insanely liberal counterparts, who are somehow also still considered Anglican) to absolutely bananas denominations like "Oneness Pentecostals", Jehovah's Witnesses, and other "Christians" who deny the Divinity of Christ and the reality of the Holy Trinity. Can all of these bring people to God? NO! But God can (and really, really wants to!) bring people out of them, to Him. But since God made loving children and not brainless robots, it requires their assent. Protestants are some of those people who, for one reason or another, have yet to respond "yes" to His call. Some will. Some won't. In either case, let's not pretend that "no" means "yes" and "yes" means "no".
However, something that makes me very sad is the inaccessibility and relative ignorance and lack of knowledge of the Orthodox church (specifically in the west). Most have never heard of it and see it as the protestants and catholics competing, and when someone decides to dabble in Christianity, those are the general defaults.
To leave you with a beatiful verse that relates: "I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase." (1 Cor 3:6)
I can honestly say that anyone who leaves the coptic church for protestantism is stupid, and that is a direct insult to the individual.
But there are also few Orthodox committed to mission among Western people and not much support for those that are so engaged.
We should not blame those who have never been offered Orthodoxy for not receiving it.
I'm not saying they are better than us because they do have more resources than us but we aren't any better than them and either way, let God be the judge of that.
Secondly, before we start attacking them on why they attract people from our Church why not look at our defaults? Most young people aren't going to sit down and analyze the dogmatic differences they are going to analyze the environmental differences and where they are more comfortable. Unfortunately our church does have some problems in regards to our community structure. Very often people who have done something wrong are exposed and the gossip goes around the whole church to the point the person is aggravated and learns to hate the Coptic church because of this experience and I don't think anyone can deny this happening; I've seen it happen a couple of times in front of my very eyes. I could get into more but I'll keep the rest to myself. Anyways, to these people who see themselves as rejects of the church, many Protestant churches are more accepting and forgiving to them.
Again, I do not see this as a dogmatic problem but a CULTURAL one so before we accuse them of this and that let's correct ourselves first: "How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye?" Let us correct ourselves first.
You say...
Of course, the Coptic church has a better dogma. That said, why judge them so harshly?
I think that this is wrong. The Orthodox Church has TRUE doctrine and the doctrines which are special to Protestantism aere FALSE. It is not a matter of better or not, it is a matter of what is TRUE.
You say...
What I mean is they don't have to be perfect in their masses and dogma
But in fact the Orthodox Christian faith requires us to be perfect in our worship and belief. Who has taught you that it does not matter what is believed? If what is believed is not the TRUTH then it is a FALSEHOOD. You are saying that it does not matter if people believe falsehoods.
Protestantism does not save anybody. All those teachings which are particularly Protestant are false. People are saved while being Protestants through the grace of God but it is DESPITE Protestant teachings which are not just less good as ours, but they are FALSE. There is not A SINGLE Protestant teaching which I was taught as an Evangelical which is true. There are various degrees of Orthodox truth which remain in various groups, and it is this varying degree of truth which leads people to Christ. But Protestant teachings themselves are FALSE and lead people away from Christ.
This is not harsh. It is the truth. Orthodoxy is not better, it is true.
I am not saying that which they teach is true or false but they do a lot of the things that Christ asked his followers to do. I am not saying people should convert but it's not like they worship idols and wage war on unbelievers...they do a lot of good things too and we must be grateful for that and learn to improve ourselves before faulting others for our problems. People leave not just because the Protestant church is attractive but because the Coptic community becomes more condemning and less comfortable to it's followers.
This statement is about as generalized as you can get. Where is the evidence for your claims? And why cannot people distinguish between the individual and the belief? I am, and always will be, criticizing the protestant BELIEF, not the person. Buddhists do many good things and do MANY things Christ asked His followers to do, are they then Christian on that alone? It seems you want to believe that protestantism is Christian, its not. You cannot just make up a religion and call it Christian. Its simple.
So let's completely disregard the Christian or not part of this because I'm sure many people here know more than me about this subject. I just want to answer this thread and I want Copts instead of making fun of Protestants and insulting to realize that Protestants have done a lot of Christianity as a whole and it's not their fault Copts are going to their church but it's our fault for driving Copts away from our church. I remember when I was younger a teenage Copt was ridiculed by a priest in front of everyone; he left the Coptic church and went to a Protestant one. Is that the Protestants fault? Or is it ours? I'm sure that if the priest had taken the young aside and talked to him he'd still be part of the Church. Btw, I'm not saying there is a problem with priests it's just an example out of many I chose, it's a community problem that we have to admit we have and fix before it gets worse.
The thing is dogma isn't just words. Its not just something that we believe in, that matters, but not that much. Our beliefs are key to our relationship with God. For example if I believe in Sola Scriptura (Only Scripture, No tradition), I will lose out in my spiritual life by disregarding all that was passed by the apostles by word of mouth. Also, if I believe that it is through faith alone that I am saved, and that salvation happens in a moment, my relationship with God will lose out a little. The devil can use these things to say, "Oh you are already making it to paradise, you can do what you want now." That's dangerous, because then I can go be sinful and lose out on my reward and my relationship with God. Or if I believe that the Holy Eucharist isn't essential for my salvation, I lose partaking of the Body and Blood of our Lord. This is really made clear by a quote from an early monk named Evagrius, "If you are a theologian, you will pray truly. And if you pray truly, you are a theologian."
Now as Orthodox Christians our goal is not to go around speaking against Protestantism. Certainly there is a place and time to say that the parts of Protestantism that differ from us (dogmatically) are not Christian, and the difference between us and them. HH Pope Shenouda wrote a book about the differences, and how certain Protestant practices are wrong, but he did this in a loving manner, and this is what we have to do. If it becomes out of anger or out of irritation there's a 90% chance that it isn't solely out of love. However, our main focus is to show the beauty of our Church, and if we are able to do that through our words and actions, I can't imagine someone still rejecting it.
We do have to show others the beauty of Christ and his Bride (the Church), through our actions, and nobody denies that. You are right that we must be more loving. We are not perfect people in any way, and we as people obviously have faults (I know it shocked me too!), but we do have the True faith.
Please correct me if I'm wrong in anything. The reason that I'm not afraid to post here, is because I trust someone will correct me if I'm wrong.
I am quite offended that protestants continually come on here and try to make it seem as if we are intolerant, ignorant, and downright mean. Everything you have said is speculative. You have no proof of any of this that you claim. WE ARE ATTACKING THE BELIEF NOT THE PERSON. If that offends you, leave, because you do not seem to intent on hearing anything anyone else on here has to say.
You want us all to be nice about a heretical belief system masking as Christianity and ruining peoples salvation? I am sorry my friend but you will not get that here, from me atleast.
Please read it, it is a very good book! Don't even listen to us, but read His Holiness' book and it should help explain everything in a better way than anyone here probably can.
However, Zoxsasi started this really important topic and I'm still wondering why some people do move to Protestantism then? What is it that we do or dont't do which cause this to occur so often? And can we do something about it?
[quote author=anba bola link=topic=10823.msg131632#msg131632 date=1298684591]
Please pray for me! (someone please actually notice this. It isn't a signature and I need your prayers)
May God be with you...
The point is, if one wants to find God he does so on his own, throughout his life, he worships God in his everyday actions, he spends his days meditating on the word of God, he reads the Bible, studies the Bible, and always performs personal prayers. You don't go to a specific church to FIND God, he is not located in certain areas, or restricted to certain churches. The idea of Church is to unite believers to worship God together. Jesus Christ instituted certain sacraments to the Church, the group of believers, these sacraments are meant to be a help for us, to join us together, and to join us with Christ. Its your decision whether you want to accept the sacraments or not.
The fact of the matter is, we DON'T know how to worship God, what can we as humans do to worship God? How do you worship the creator? The Bible, the Old Testament, and the New Testament give us these "Holy" traditions showing us how to perform liturgical worship, this is worship that was given to us by God himself, it is him who is saying do these things, sing these hymns, say these words, and you will benefit from them. God is not doing this for himself, he did it for US... So for people to say "I don't like that way, I like to worship God in my own way", hey, thats fine, its not like God will hate you for not doing it His way, its just that you will never be fully satisfied, the fullness of Gods grace goes to those who love Jesus and DO THE WILL OF HIS FATHER (Heres where the "rules" come into play). The most important sacrament is obviously communion, which gives up power over death itself, thats another topic that I don't want to open up here, but you can see why the sacraments and liturgical worship are so important.
The whole "Copts hate and are ultra-harsh towards Protestants" stereotype is in fact false and misguided. If anything Orthodox Christians are usually disappointed that Protestants left, or stubbornly refuse to consider Orthodoxy. The only harshness I've ever noticed is purely DEFENSIVE in nature. Example: Many Protestant youth (in Egypt) try to draw in the Coptic youth by asking them to join weekly prayer/religious meetings held at Protestant homes where older Protestants lead in prayers and then push and sell their beliefs. With time, these Copts don't convert but instead switch places of worship. Most Protestant groups here don't try to compete with Orthodoxy, but instead try to sell themselves with it. They don't require membership with their church, and only theirs (so as to not seem closed-off)but leave the doors open, knowing well that most 'switchers' will prefer the fiery sermons and the catchy tunes. It's this poaching of Orthodox people, that often angers the Copts. Mainly because Copts feel as if someone is telling them "NO Copts, your 2000-year old religion is not wrong, but misguided, come join us for a prayer meeting and we'll show you how our religion is right, fun, and Christian.'
I actually know a priest, who upon hearing one of his youth was involved in these meetings [to the point that the visited the kid in his house], physically showed up and essentially took down their misguided beliefs one by one in an open-debate manner. The 'preacher' evantually excused himself and left the Priest and the kid's company. But to say Coptics hate or are not warm towards Protestants is just plain out wrong. Copts in Egypt are always bringing up the reported numbers of Muslim to Christian converts even though they know that a good percentage of them are converts to Protestantism. They don't deny their work, or their efforts, or their attempts at bringing people to Christ, if anything they praise it. Which brings up a sort of philosophical question, is it better or equal for a person to remain in a religion that does not believe in Christ as God, than to join a misguided church that does?