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Comments
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg129625#msg129625 date=1296813843]
All the messages and comments I am hearing from Egypt suggest that Copts generally are not participating in protests.
I really don't think we can generalize. You really need to do a survey.
Why not ask here if anyone HAS protested?
I know already 4 Coptic Christians that were part of the Jan 25 protesters.
Those were the peaceful protests. Now the protests are much more Islamic. You're going to tell me that Copts were out on friday during prayers? ya. sure.
[quote author=John_S2000 link=topic=10626.msg129658#msg129658 date=1296847870]
There are almost none anymore but I assumed you spoke of a few you knew of. You must realize that the number of immediately anti Mubarak people now is a really very small percentage of the whole population. He said he will resign soon and so he will, everybody is wisely convinced of a safe transition period for power transfer. There are of course a few stubborn people left.
GBU
I'm reading news reports and media reports from different sources, and I have NO idea what the figures are. I really don't.
I can't even generalize or make extrapolations.
Personally, I don't think the youth are wise in what they are doing:
"We're not leaving until Mubarak leaves". This is completely immature. So, I disagree with them.
The youth announced that they're fine with Mubarak leaving in september and have left the square a couple of days ago. Its the MB and their suppporters that are left there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0EdnMAAfF0
GBU
CAN EVERYONE JUST GO AND READ ISAIAH CHAPTER 19???
THE ENTIRE COPTIC ORTHODOX CHURCH IS DISCUSSING THIS!!!
PLEASE!!!
Please stop cross-posting. We have been discussing this passage for the last week here on Tasbeha.
Sorry I had no idea you had been discussing this before.
I just got a message from a friend asking me to read it.
I read it and was just overwhelmed.
Apparently, what the monks have been saying is - that many muslims will convert to Christianity at the end of this.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10626.msg129628#msg129628 date=1296814993]
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg129625#msg129625 date=1296813843]
All the messages and comments I am hearing from Egypt suggest that Copts generally are not participating in protests.
I really don't think we can generalize. You really need to do a survey.
Why not ask here if anyone HAS protested?
I know already 4 Coptic Christians that were part of the Jan 25 protesters.
Those were the peaceful protests. Now the protests are much more Islamic. You're going to tell me that Copts were out on friday during prayers? ya. sure.
I don't get the impression that the protests are becoming more Islamic. I get the feeling they are becoming increasingly secular
http://bikyamasr.com/wordpress/?p=25892
Why? Why is Isaiah 19 more applicable to now than any of the other much more serious upheavals in Egyptian life over the centuries?
I think people just want a sense of hope Father.
The Muslim Brotherhood After Mubarak
http://www.foreignaffairs.com/articles/67348/carrie-rosefsky-wickham/the-muslim-brotherhood-after-mubarak?page=show
I grew up in a Protestant community that did this all the time. It is just not healthy. I have not found the Fathers to engage in such activities, even in the much worse circumstances in which they found themselves over past centuries.
God is our hope. He will not fail us. The human imagination always will.
[quote author=epiphania link=topic=10626.msg129731#msg129731 date=1296922768]
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10626.msg129628#msg129628 date=1296814993]
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg129625#msg129625 date=1296813843]
All the messages and comments I am hearing from Egypt suggest that Copts generally are not participating in protests.
I really don't think we can generalize. You really need to do a survey.
Why not ask here if anyone HAS protested?
I know already 4 Coptic Christians that were part of the Jan 25 protesters.
Those were the peaceful protests. Now the protests are much more Islamic. You're going to tell me that Copts were out on friday during prayers? ya. sure.
I don't get the impression that the protests are becoming more Islamic. I get the feeling they are becoming increasingly secular
http://bikyamasr.com/wordpress/?p=25892
Huh, they hold a mass in tahrir square?? How? A holy mass? Or am I misunderstanding..
Seriously, we should find hope in God each day, not in trying to make prophecies fit particular events.
I grew up in a Protestant community that did this all the time. It is just not healthy. I have not found the Fathers to engage in such activities, even in the much worse circumstances in which they found themselves over past centuries.
God is our hope. He will not fail us. The human imagination always will.
I agree with Fr Peter, only God is our hope.
Gb u
Seriously, we should find hope in God each day, not in trying to make prophecies fit particular events.
I grew up in a Protestant community that did this all the time. It is just not healthy. I have not found the Fathers to engage in such activities, even in the much worse circumstances in which they found themselves over past centuries.
God is our hope. He will not fail us. The human imagination always will.
Thank you Father Peter for still being watchful... you speak the Truth.
I'm saddened by how many people forget the Psalm 117 - "It is good to put your trust in the Lord then on Leaders"
When we pray we should ask God let your will be done lord not mine . Dont ask God we want Mubarak or we dont want the Muslim brotherhood... What if its Gods will to put the M.B in power? (in order for the many Saints that will come about? (I know its scary but we don't know!) Always pray for Gods will not what we want.
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10626.msg129836#msg129836 date=1297018132]
[quote author=epiphania link=topic=10626.msg129731#msg129731 date=1296922768]
[quote author=Zoxsasi link=topic=10626.msg129628#msg129628 date=1296814993]
[quote author=Father Peter link=topic=10626.msg129625#msg129625 date=1296813843]
All the messages and comments I am hearing from Egypt suggest that Copts generally are not participating in protests.
I really don't think we can generalize. You really need to do a survey.
Why not ask here if anyone HAS protested?
I know already 4 Coptic Christians that were part of the Jan 25 protesters.
Those were the peaceful protests. Now the protests are much more Islamic. You're going to tell me that Copts were out on friday during prayers? ya. sure.
I don't get the impression that the protests are becoming more Islamic. I get the feeling they are becoming increasingly secular
http://bikyamasr.com/wordpress/?p=25892
Huh, they hold a mass in tahrir square?? How? A holy mass? Or am I misunderstanding..
What? hold a mass in the street? Have a holy offering in the street?! no way. They must be just singing songs or something. There's no way anyone would consent to have the body and blood of God in the street...right?
There is nothing wrong with holding a mass outside.
Here is an excerpt from the Synexarium entry for Pope Peter El Gawly, the 109th Patriarch of the See of St. Mark: [http://www.copticchurch.net/synaxarium/7_28.html]
Does anyone have any actual facts?
The Reuters video of what was described as a Mass didn't look anything like one.
Does anyone have any actual facts?
Is this the Reuters video you meant Father?
If so, I agree it's probably not a mass, it just looks like some random bloke reading from a prayer book and getting people to respond with "amen."
Seriously, we should find hope in God each day, not in trying to make prophecies fit particular events.
I grew up in a Protestant community that did this all the time. It is just not healthy. I have not found the Fathers to engage in such activities, even in the much worse circumstances in which they found themselves over past centuries.
God is our hope. He will not fail us. The human imagination always will.
In regards to the Isaiah 19 issue I think Father Peter has spoken wise and true words.
Seriously, we should find hope in God each day, not in trying to make prophecies fit particular events.
I grew up in a Protestant community that did this all the time. It is just not healthy. I have not found the Fathers to engage in such activities, even in the much worse circumstances in which they found themselves over past centuries.
God is our hope. He will not fail us. The human imagination always will.
My apologies. I agree with what you are saying.
Its true. I think everyone has been interpreting this and Jeremiah 46 in a very unobjective way.
However, its extremely compelling still.
Concerning the reuters video, what is your problem if Copts have joined the Tahrir Square Demonstrations?
Concerning the Reuters video, I didn't say anything about Copts participating. I just said that it didn't look at all like a liturgy was being performed. And the use of the word mass, which is not Orthodox, made me wonder if some Catholics were participating.
It looked like a guy was reading from the agpeya. So maybe it was just the first hour or something. Why people called it mass beats me. which I think is great, because I'm against the idea of the holy sacraments being paraded around in the streets. It just seems undignified.
Concerning the Reuters video, I didn't say anything about Copts participating. I just said that it didn't look at all like a liturgy was being performed. And the use of the word mass, which is not Orthodox, made me wonder if some Catholics were participating.
Well, it was definately Coptic Orthodox. I know that because Michael Mounir was participating in it.
But I agree - it didnt seem like a liturgy. Maybe they did vespers prayers. If that WAS the case. If Christians DID pray openly on that day, then that was the first time in Islamic Egypt that this has ever happened. EVER!!
Did you see a priest, I looked but couldn't.
I saw them reading from the Agpeya - (The Psalms), I'll ask my cousins who were there.
But if this did happen, it will open the door further towards religious tolerance. That's important for us.
Is our job as Christians and ambassadors of the Gospel to argue who would make a better leader, Mubarak or the Muslim Brotherhood? Or is it to pray for those who persecute us?
Did not the Fathers, in their spiritual wisdom, set for us a litany called, "Litany for the Ruler", which asks God to soften the ruler's heart? Do we see any Patrisitic father advising, rallying, "politicizing", or telling his followers to pick one ruler over another?
Read the History of the Patriarchs of Egypt or "Coptic Papacy" Vol 2 by Mark Swanson. All the persecutions, murders and abuses suffered by the Copts and the Coptic patriarch today are nothing compare to what has happened to all Copts from the time of Pope Benjamin to the Ottoman Empire. And through it all, did the Copts perish? No. Because they trusted in God and God only; and their prayers for their rulers were effective.
Let us take this time to stop fighting a secular war and focus on our spiritual war and repent. It's more important for us to fight for our eternal life and that citizenship of a celestial city rather than our citizenship in a "kingdom" that perishes.
George
Has anyone prayed for the Mubarak and the Muslim Brotherhood?
Is our job as Christians and ambassadors of the Gospel to argue who would make a better leader, Mubarak or the Muslim Brotherhood? Or is it to pray for those who persecute us?
Did not the Fathers, in their spiritual wisdom, set for us a litany called, "Litany for the Ruler", which asks God to soften the ruler's heart? Do we see any Patrisitic father advising, rallying, "politicizing", or telling his followers to pick one ruler over another?
Read the History of the Patriarchs of Egypt or "Coptic Papacy" Vol 2 by Mark Swanson. All the persecutions, murders and abuses suffered by the Copts and the Coptic patriarch today are nothing compare to what has happened to all Copts from the time of Pope Benjamin to the Ottoman Empire. And through it all, did the Copts perish? No. Because they trusted in God and God only; and their prayers for their rulers were effective.
Let us take this time to stop fighting a secular war and focus on our spiritual war and repent. It's more important for us to fight for our eternal life and that citizenship of a celestial city rather than our citizenship in a "kingdom" that perishes.
George
Why are we always persecuted for?
Let's just ask Mubarak how many Christians he expects to die under his rule and how many Copts can we expect to die per year with the Muslim Brotherhood?
Maybe we can get a good deal under the MB??? Maybe they'll offer us 50 dead for the 1st year (that's capped), and then when they get into full swing, we could go up to 100 dead bodies every 2 years??
What is this?
Politics is about policies. We want a policies that result in secular governments. I'm fed up of us being so scared to ask for our rights. Its getting ridiculous.
Why don't we pray that God hardens our hearts and gives us the strength to stand up for our rights??? WHY NOT?? Maybe we should be praying that God gives us the courage to stand up and say "ENOUGH!!!!!!"
Why don't we ask for that? Maybe the Church should create a litany for the cowards and the persecuted who prefer to rest in their comfort zone than to scream out from the social injustices that plagues them!!!!!!!
Im fed up!
Do you really think that the present situation is ANYTHING like it has been in the past? Do you not remember why the Coptic calendar dates from 284 AD? Do you not remember why we use the abbreviation A.M. meaning 'Year of the Martyrs'?
Those who face persecution are not cowards. How many tens and hundreds of thousands were martyred under Diocletian and the other pagan Emperors. How many tens of thousands were martyred under the Chalcedonians. How many tens and hundreds of thousands under the Muslims.
Each life lost is a matter of great sadness, but the situation is nothing at all compared with how it has been. At the time of Patriarch Simon the Tanner the WHOLE Orthodox community faced extermination. Mubarak has done nothing comparable.