Paramoun of Epiphany

Hello! I know it's a bit early but I'm already confused about what to say on this day due to different things said by different sources. First of all, Tasbeha.org and the brown "Coptic Hymns" book both agree that there is a special doxology and special verses of the cymbals for the Paramoun, Al Bair's book as well as the new Service Deacons book both say to just say the verses of the cymbals and the doxology from the feast. However, I'm inclined to think this is wrong, because to say the hymns from the feast would require the Joyful Tune, whereas both Al Bair and the Service book clearly state that it should be said in the annual tune. It's quite confusing...

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  • [quote author=Michael Boutros link=topic=10439.msg126843#msg126843 date=1294780266]
    Hello! I know it's a bit early but I'm already confused about what to say on this day due to different things said by different sources. First of all, Tasbeha.org and the brown "Coptic Hymns" book both agree that there is a special doxology and special verses of the cymbals for the Paramoun, Al Bair's book as well as the new Service Deacons book both say to just say the verses of the cymbals and the doxology from the feast. However, I'm inclined to think this is wrong, because to say the hymns from the feast would require the Joyful Tune, whereas both Al Bair and the Service book clearly state that it should be said in the annual tune. It's quite confusing...

    Paramoun rite is ALWAYS annual....not joyful.

    here: http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/2343
    I said: - All the prayers are prayed in annual tune.
  • Indeed, that's what I thought, but the online rite from Al Bair says:

    "The prayers in the Paramoun of the Epiphany differ only in that the Verses of Cymbals and doxologies for the Epiphany are chanted, as well as the Gospel Response specific to the Epiphany following the reading of the Gospel. At the end of the Vespers and Prime Raising of Incense, the creed of the completion of the Epiphany is recited. The liturgy is prayed in the similar manner as the annual one, with the exception of the Gospel Response (which is again specific to the Epiphany), the Fraction of the Epiphany, and finally, the creed of the completion of the Feast of Epiphany."

    I know it may seem obvious that they mean the Paramoun whenever they say "Epiphany," but for other Paramouns its much clearer:

    "In the Vespers and Prime Offering of Incense, the Verses of the Cymbals and the Doxology specific to the Paramoun of the Nativity are chanted. After the Gospel reading, the Gospel Response of Vespers and Prime of the Paramoun are chanted, and in the conclusion of the prayer, the Concluding Canon specific to the glorious Feast of the Nativity is chanted. "

    Additionally, the Service Book states that we should say "aki" even on Paramouns, and that's what we did for the Nativity Paramoun, although saying "acmasf" seemed more appropriate...
  • [quote author=Michael Boutros link=topic=10439.msg126857#msg126857 date=1294787762]
    Additionally, the Service Book states that we should say "aki" even on Paramouns, and that's what we did for the Nativity Paramoun, although saying "acmasf" seemed more appropriate...

    according to M Farag's book, Avmask is to be said beginning from the Paramoun of the Nativity and afitshioms from the paramoun of Epiphany.
  • I believe that's the correct teaching Mina
    Oujai
  • what day is it:O i think im loosing track of time
  • Kiro7, the Feast Liturgy is actually a week from today, I'm just planning ahead. I shall simply ask my priest what he will do and just follow suit.
  • Hi Michael,

    I am looking at Albair's Deacons Service book, 2nd ed., page 298. It says:
    Epiphany Paramon Vespers & Matins:
    - Verses of the Cymbals for the Paramon
    - Doxology for the Paramon
    - Gospel Response for Epiphany Paramon
    - Concluding Prayer (Canon) for Epiphany Feast

    Epiphany Paramon Liturgy:
    - Annual rite
    - Gospel response for Paramon
    - Fraction Prayer for Ephiphany Feast
    - Concluding Prayer (Canon) for Epiphany Feast

    Page 12 of the same book states that you say Ak-chi-oms from Epiphany Paramon (10 Tobah) until 12 Tobah.

    I believe the above is all correct. It is supported by other Arabic references eg:
    - Muallem Farag's Deacon's Service book;
    - El-Sorian Monastery's Rites book

    All Paramon prayers are always in annual tune; no exceptions.
  • Thanks for all the responses! Unfortunately, the CopticHymns.net website is still not serving media. Does anyone know to what tune the communion hymn is sung?

    http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/2352
  • [quote author=Michael Boutros link=topic=10439.msg127198#msg127198 date=1295240202]
    Thanks for all the responses! Unfortunately, the CopticHymns.net website is still not serving media. Does anyone know to what tune the communion hymn is sung?

    http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/2352

    there is a recording of abouna Ash'eia el-maharaqi....not sure where. I think it should be constructed on the long tune of ari-epres-vevin of tamgeed.
  • [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10439.msg127204#msg127204 date=1295241215]
    [quote author=Michael Boutros link=topic=10439.msg127198#msg127198 date=1295240202]
    Thanks for all the responses! Unfortunately, the CopticHymns.net website is still not serving media. Does anyone know to what tune the communion hymn is sung?

    http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/2352

    there is a recording of abouna Ash'eia el-maharaqi....not sure where. I think it should be constructed on the long tune of ari-epres-vevin of tamgeed.


    I actually heard this hymn was done in the tune of pioik.
  • [quote author=jydeacon link=topic=10439.msg127216#msg127216 date=1295245553]
    [quote author=minatasgeel link=topic=10439.msg127204#msg127204 date=1295241215]
    [quote author=Michael Boutros link=topic=10439.msg127198#msg127198 date=1295240202]
    Thanks for all the responses! Unfortunately, the CopticHymns.net website is still not serving media. Does anyone know to what tune the communion hymn is sung?

    http://tasbeha.org/hymn_library/view/2352

    there is a recording of abouna Ash'eia el-maharaqi....not sure where. I think it should be constructed on the long tune of ari-epres-vevin of tamgeed.


    I actually heard this hymn was done in the tune of pioik.

    i might of made up that at some point of time.... ::) SORRY!!!......but if it does say that in a book, than it is right. But i simply doubt that because i was the one to type it up from Albair's book, translated and Gerges Gad reviewed it so we can have a unified text and than i put it online. me and him said that we'll say it in pi-oik tune but than latter i found that it have a special tune. and THANK GOD they don't have it in the khedmit shamas simply for the sake of not have a mistake in the book.
  • I think the recording you're talking about is at CopticHymns.net but it's still not working. Are you guys sure it's to Pi-oik? The verses seem quite wordy and just trying quickly I've found it difficult to sing it to the tune without going through every word quickly.
  • [quote author=Michael Boutros link=topic=10439.msg127251#msg127251 date=1295294687]
    I think the recording you're talking about is at CopticHymns.net but it's still not working. Are you guys sure it's to Pi-oik? The verses seem quite wordy and just trying quickly I've found it difficult to sing it to the tune without going through every word quickly.

    exactly....it's not.
  • Mina
    That's not an Adam hymn, so it can't be fitted on bewik.
    Oujai
  • "Bewik" made me laugh out loud  :D
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=10439.msg127261#msg127261 date=1295302068]
    Mina
    That's not an Adam hymn, so it can't be fitted on bewik.
    Oujai


    Oh...so now we consider adam and watos hymns.
    That's why I am saying again that it is not. It was a mistake of us to spread the saying that it is said on pi oik tune.
    I have sinned, forgive me my brothers and fathers.
  • Hehe... Mina, this attitude is what makes you a very respectable member and not only that but a deacon and a hymns teacher as well (if only you wouldn't have refused sharing ouseyou afshai! You'd have been immaculate). Not sure if you noticed this but that's a basic mistake Cantor Ibrahim fell in the trap of, recording Lazarus on such a tune when it's Watos. Cantor Wagdy recorded it correctly and I believe Cantor GAd did as well.
    Dear TITL it's so hard and frustrating not to be able to edit in Coptic, and I for one am whole-heartedly against what they call transliteration in general not only in Coptic, but I guess I still don't want to refer to the hymn as "the bread of life", or else it'd seem like I'm referring to an English song.
    Oujai
  • It appears as if the new Service book is based off Al Bair's translated Rite at CopticHeritage.org, but according to an earlier post referencing p. 298 of his book, the website's translation is all wrong!
  • [quote author=Michael Boutros link=topic=10439.msg127313#msg127313 date=1295380661]
    It appears as if the new Service book is based off Al Bair's translated Rite at CopticHeritage.org, but according to an earlier post referencing p. 298 of his book, the website's translation is all wrong!

    hmmm....i don't think they fully do....but they do use it. it is clear in the preface of the book and also i know some people who worked on it.

    which translation are we talking about exactly?
  • On the CopticHeritage.org website, under the Rite of the Epiphany, it says:

    "In the Vespers and Prime Offering of Incense, the Verses of the Cymbals and the Doxology specific to the Paramoun of the Nativity are chanted. After the Gospel reading, the Gospel Response of Vespers and Prime of the Paramoun are chanted, and in the conclusion of the prayer, the Concluding Canon specific to the glorious Feast of the Nativity is chanted."

    The Service of the Deacon's book goes one step further, having a verse for the Gospel Response followed by "Alleluia (4) Isos..." and "Fai Erepi..." for the Paramon which is certainly incorrect.

    - Michael Boutros
  • [quote author=Michael Boutros link=topic=10439.msg127315#msg127315 date=1295381726]
    On the CopticHeritage.org website, under the Rite of the Epiphany, it says:

    "In the Vespers and Prime Offering of Incense, the Verses of the Cymbals and the Doxology specific to the Paramoun of the Nativity are chanted. After the Gospel reading, the Gospel Response of Vespers and Prime of the Paramoun are chanted, and in the conclusion of the prayer, the Concluding Canon specific to the glorious Feast of the Nativity is chanted."

    The Service of the Deacon's book goes one step further, having a verse for the Gospel Response followed by "Alleluia (4) Isos..." and "Fai Erepi..." for the Paramon which is certainly incorrect.

    - Michael Boutros

    i am looking here: http://copticheritage.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&page_id=308
    and i looks fine to me.

    Also rites of the Nativity Paramoun is fine here: http://copticheritage.org/modules.php?op=modload&name=PagEd&file=index&page_id=379#section1
  • [quote author=ophadece link=topic=10439.msg127291#msg127291 date=1295321284]
    Hehe... Mina, this attitude is what makes you a very respectable member and not only that but a deacon and a hymns teacher as well (if only you wouldn't have refused sharing ouseyou afshai! You'd have been immaculate). Not sure if you noticed this but that's a basic mistake Cantor Ibrahim fell in the trap of, recording Lazarus on such a tune when it's Watos. Cantor Wagdy recorded it correctly and I believe Cantor GAd did as well.
    Dear TITL it's so hard and frustrating not to be able to edit in Coptic, and I for one am whole-heartedly against what they call transliteration in general not only in Coptic, but I guess I still don't want to refer to the hymn as "the bread of life", or else it'd seem like I'm referring to an English song.
    Oujai




    Actually, I see no issue with the hymn Lazarus, in most books it says quite clearly, to be said in either the tune of pioik, or our father. What's the problem then with Ibrahim ayad recording it that way?
  • Dear jydeacon,
    Beoik is an Adam arranged poem that is sung in an Adam tune pretty close to the last two verses of the Adam taodokeya, namely awolhidan. Lazarus piece on the other hand is a Watos-arranged piece with more towels to each quartet usually between 7 - 9 as opposed to 5 - 7 for the Adam pieces.
    Oujai
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