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Comments
In a way your right,and in a way your wrong{in my humble opinion of course}.You do take all the relevant verses and draw conclusions but you dont form your understanding of doctrine based on one single and isolated passage of scripture,especially when the passage is not clear cut and open to several different interpretations.You believe that James is saying a person is saved by faith and works{even though Paul says exactly the opposite}but we believe he is only sayig that a faith that does not produce works is a dead faith,not a saving faith, and we agree with him 100%.We dont believe he is contradicting Paul but rather reacting against those people who say they are christians ,but actually are not, since they do not bear any fruit.You have to always go with the majority of scriptures when there is some doubt.Take for example the subject of baptism.There is one obscure passage by Paul speaking about baptism for the dead.This is a very hard passage to understand and some{the Mormons}practice baptismal rites for those who are already dead.If we go by your theory,then we must accept all the scriptures about baptism-we must practice baptism for the living and the dead.We know this is not right,and therefore build our understanding of the doctrine of baptism on the basis of the majority of texts,not a single isolated passage.
I agree with Wasim and really dont want to argue anymore on the subject,since I take no pleasure in argueing with fellow christians.It was not my intention to cause strife or conflict but only to give you a better understanding of our beliefs,what you call protestantism{like I said,I dont really like that word,and many bible believing christians dont consider themselves protestants}.As I have stated previously,I consider Coptic Orthodox to be christians who love the Lord,even if I dont agree with all their theology,and I consider them brothers and sisters in the Lord Jesus Christ.If you dont consider us as christians,then that is your choice.One thing I do know is that Christ lives in my heart,and I have a living relationship with him.I also know without a doubt that when Christ comes back for His church,its not going to be only a church of whom the vast majority of its members are of Eygptian descent but rather the Word of God says their will be myriads and myriads of christians from every tribe and nation and people on earth.God bless you all!
does anyone know of any good sites
God Bless You all
F.R.O.G
GOD BLESS ALL! :-*
It was said that we do not practice the (7) sacraments:
#1 Baptism - Since we all understand that the word
means immersion, trust that I as a Christian who ministers in the Protestant tradition does indeed practice Baptism in the name of the Father/Son and the Holy Spirit. That baptism acknowledges our oneness with God and His church.
#2 Chrismation which is the practice of the laying on
of hands to receive the Holy Spirit. We absolutely
believe in this practice, and many have received the Holy Spirit this way. We also acknowledge some interesting verses of scripture: "And I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give ahim a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? Or if he asks for an egg, will be offer him a scorpion? If you then, being evil, know how o give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him." The muinistry of the Holy Spirit in the life of every believers: He comes to regenerate; indwell; anoint; guide; empower; sanctify; bear witness;help; give joy; give discernment; bear fruit and give gifts. We recognize it will take the ministry of the Holy Spirit to live out the Christian life.
#3 Holy Eucharist - Commonly called Communion in our
tradition. Now I will admit that far too often the elements are seen as symbols, but I have to admit that I too receive them as Christ's body and blood. We however, recognize that Communion (Holy Eucharist) unites man with God, and since we are united with God, we are also united with one another, for St. Paul stated: "because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the One Bread"
(1 Cor. 10:17)
#4 Repentance & Confession - As a Christian in a Protestant tradition I do practice this differently than you. "If you confess your sins, I am faithful & just to forgive you and to cleanse you from all unrighteousness." & also "Therefore, confess your sins o one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be heaed. The effective prayer of a righteous man an accomplish much." (James 5:16). Personally when I spend time in prayer, I also spend time searching my heart -- for all sin I acknowledge before God, seek His forgiveness and the cleansing by the blood of Jesus Christ. There have been some sins that the Lord has prompted me to share with another--usually someone who is in ministry (i.e. pastor/or another elder). When I am prompted I do so, and the prayer of forgiveness is offered.
#5 Holy Priesthood. According to Orthodox tradition this sacrament was established by Christ with the calling of His disciples, giving them the authority to loose & bind the sins of the people, and sending the Holy Spirit upon them on the day of Pentecost. We differ here, in that the authority to loose & bind can be practiced not just by those in the ministry (pastor/elder/bishop/ordained minister/deacon/deaconess). If we take a look at Matt. 6:12 & Matt 18:22 deal with the subject of forgiveness. Also Mark 11:25 which states: And whenever you stansd praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone; so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your transgressions." In these scriptures I do not see the priest alone involved in this act of forgiveness (which is a type of loosening, when we release the person to God for His divine intervention).
#6 Matrimony. This is absolutely a Protestant sacrament, which was established by God. My marriage was performed by the Pastor of the church, and thereby binding. It ended with my husband's death. Know that those who might have divorced in the church and remarried, were not necessarily remarried by the Pastor of the church, for many pastors have declined remarrying people because the grounds that Christ spoke of was not part of the issue. I would like to see more pastors spends more quality time doing thorough pre-martial counseling & prayer, for I believe that with that many more pastors would not be involved in some of these marriages.
# 7 Holy Unction. Protestants also practice this sacrament. This sacrament is to anoint, sharing of the Word of God and pray for the sick for healing. This sacrament does not replace repentance & confession. Forgi veness of sins comes through faith in God, confession of sin, and sincere repentance. I have practiced this sacrament many times, and have seen the Lord raise many from their death beds to healing, wholeness and a renewed dedication to follow Christ. I have also witnessed the Lord raise two patients whose
hearts had stopped on the operating table to recover as I was impressed of the Lord to pray and intercede on their behalf.
I know my response is rather long, but I felt it important to address the concerns expressed. Know that the Lord God is moving in the hearts of all true believers, thereby making us one in Christ Jesus. I am not the apologists, but I have tried to answer to the best of my ability.
God's blessings to all!
Good question. One must know the Difference between us and the other religeons. Our Pope Shenouda printed a book showing
these differencies. Let Abouna bring that book to you. Thanks
Mike
I am sorry to hear that you experienced such from another Christian. Trust that not all Christians from other traditions feel that way. I too am a Christian who fellowships in a Pentecostal/Holiness Church tradition. I do not see the Orthodox Church as demonized, or anything such as that. When I stop to realize how critical we are of one another my heart pains. I often wonder how our Heavenly Father's heart feels when He sees His children critical/demeaning/hostile/and bitter towards one another.
Often I think that this need that mankind has to feel superior over one another is an outcome of the Fall! When you study the Book of Beginnings (Genesis) and see how God ordered the world, mankind was suppose to have 'dominion' over the fish of the sea, the birds of the air and the animals that walked on the earth. God did not create man to have dominion over one another. This kind of ungodly behavior came as a result of the fall, and still we see all around us continued ungodliness. Racism, sexism, secularism are examples of how far we have gotten away from God's original design.
As Christians we are called to resist sin and walk holy. It almost seems like we have forgotten that our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against powers and principalities, spiritual wickedness in high places. Instead, we spend far too much time fighting one another in the Body of Christ.
Now I recognize that there are beliefs within the Christian tradition that we may not always see eye-to-eye, in other words, we may place a difference emphasis on (i.e. Marian theology/a woman's role within the ministry of the Church, etc.); however, in the final analysis God will be the judge.
The one thing that He has called us to do with another believer is to "love your brother as you love yourself" to "walk in faith toward God" and "to be holy because He is holy." That there is enough to keep us busy on the home front. The enemy of our souls must laugh at us warring against one another, instead of focusing our spiritual warfare toward his demonic strategies.
Though I do not fellowship in the Orthodox Church, my love for God and His kingdom; my desire to serve Him and to minister to those outside the covenant family; my desire to be a reflect Christ and to be in oneness with Him are just as important to me as to you. I believe that we have more in common than we know. I have seen that not all Christians in the Orthodox church are always nice; just as I have seen that with those Christians who fellowship in the various Protestant Churches. (I too hate that word - Martin Luther came to reform some serious errors found in Roman Catholicism--he did not come to start another church).
I love to read and study the writings of the Desert/Apostolic Fathers as well. I also enjoy reading the writings of other early Christians who reflected that mystical quality as found through the Eucharist and developing that inner walk with Christ. This longing is not just an Orthodox thing, but a Christian thing, for it is the Holy Spirit who draws each of us to that place, at least, for those who have an ear and who want to hear.
When you hear another Christian from another tradition speak in such manner, recognize that this is just their attitude, but does not reflect the entire Christian family.
Again, please accept my apology in their behalf--for I am so very sorry that you had to experience that from another believer.
May God richly bless you this day!
[glow=red,2,300]"35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst." .[/glow]
The necessity of the Eucharist:
"For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks my blood abides in Me and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on me will live because of Me."
John 6:55-57
I hope I can forgice them one day...
Mike
Though my reply is a little late, I would like to take this opportunity to share some beliefs practiced by those is the Protestant churches, at least in the Pentecostal/Holiness/Charismatic/Evangelical traditions.
It was said that we do not practice the (7) sacraments:
#1 Baptism - Since we all understand that the word
means immersion, trust that I as a Christian who ministers in the Protestant tradition does indeed practice Baptism in the name of the Father/Son and the Holy Spirit. That baptism acknowledges our oneness with God and His church.
#2 Chrismation which is the practice of the laying on
of hands to receive the Holy Spirit. We absolutely
believe in this practice, and many have received the Holy Spirit this way. We also acknowledge some interesting verses of scripture: "And I say to you, ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. If a son asks for bread from any father among you, will he give ahim a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent instead of a fish? Or if he asks for an egg, will be offer him a scorpion? If you then, being evil, know how o give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him." The muinistry of the Holy Spirit in the life of every believers: He comes to regenerate; indwell; anoint; guide; empower; sanctify; bear witness;help; give joy; give discernment; bear fruit and give gifts. We recognize it will take the ministry of the Holy Spirit to live out the Christian life.
#3 Holy Eucharist - Commonly called Communion in our
tradition. Now I will admit that far too often the elements are seen as symbols, but I have to admit that I too receive them as Christ's body and blood. We however, recognize that Communion (Holy Eucharist) unites man with God, and since we are united with God, we are also united with one another, for St. Paul stated: "because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the One Bread"
(1 Cor. 10:17)
#4 Repentance & Confession - As a Christian in a Protestant tradition I do practice this differently than you. "If you confess your sins, I am faithful & just to forgive you and to cleanse you from all unrighteousness." & also "Therefore, confess your sins o one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be heaed. The effective prayer of a righteous man an accomplish much." (James 5:16). Personally when I spend time in prayer, I also spend time searching my heart -- for all sin I acknowledge before God, seek His forgiveness and the cleansing by the blood of Jesus Christ. There have been some sins that the Lord has prompted me to share with another--usually someone who is in ministry (i.e. pastor/or another elder). When I am prompted I do so, and the prayer of forgiveness is offered.
#5 Holy Priesthood. According to Orthodox tradition this sacrament was established by Christ with the calling of His disciples, giving them the authority to loose & bind the sins of the people, and sending the Holy Spirit upon them on the day of Pentecost. We differ here, in that the authority to loose & bind can be practiced not just by those in the ministry (pastor/elder/bishop/ordained minister/deacon/deaconess). If we take a look at Matt. 6:12 & Matt 18:22 deal with the subject of forgiveness. Also Mark 11:25 which states: And whenever you stansd praying, forgive, if you have anything against anyone; so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your transgressions." In these scriptures I do not see the priest alone involved in this act of forgiveness (which is a type of loosening, when we release the person to God for His divine intervention).
#6 Matrimony. This is absolutely a Protestant sacrament, which was established by God. My marriage was performed by the Pastor of the church, and thereby binding. It ended with my husband's death. Know that those who might have divorced in the church and remarried, were not necessarily remarried by the Pastor of the church, for many pastors have declined remarrying people because the grounds that Christ spoke of was not part of the issue. I would like to see more pastors spends more quality time doing thorough pre-martial counseling & prayer, for I believe that with that many more pastors would not be involved in some of these marriages.
# 7 Holy Unction. Protestants also practice this sacrament. This sacrament is to anoint, sharing of the Word of God and pray for the sick for healing. This sacrament does not replace repentance & confession. Forgi veness of sins comes through faith in God, confession of sin, and sincere repentance. I have practiced this sacrament many times, and have seen the Lord raise many from their death beds to healing, wholeness and a renewed dedication to follow Christ. I have also witnessed the Lord raise two patients whose
hearts had stopped on the operating table to recover as I was impressed of the Lord to pray and intercede on their behalf.
I know my response is rather long, but I felt it important to address the concerns expressed. Know that the Lord God is moving in the hearts of all true believers, thereby making us one in Christ Jesus. I am not the apologists, but I have tried to answer to the best of my ability.
God's blessings to all!
First off, which protestant sect do you belong to? Secondly, just because you stole the title of all the Sacraments and number them doesn't mean you follow the Sacraments of the Church. Even in your example you changed the meaning of all of them, just pasting the title of the Sacrament doesn't cut it. Since all Protestants reject the ordained Holy Priesthood, the only real Sacraments you have are Baptism and Matrimony, and only baptism is even acknowledged a Sacrament in your churches. Pastors definitely cannot change bread into Jesus, pastors cannot forgive sins, pastors cannot anoint the sick, and pastors cannot Chrismate. You can call it whatever you want, but don't call it a Sacrament.
I am so sorry that you feel the way you do. One decision I made when I came into this forum was not to get into any unncessary diatribes with those in this room. As a Christian I want very much to learn to practice: "Be at peace with all men, for this is the will of God."
The only comment I will make, and this comes from years of experience, is we must be careful not to brand everyone for the actions/or practices of a few. You do not know me, or about how I (or the church where I am on the ministry staff) practice the Sacraments. It is unfortunate when blanket statements are made in behalf of all Protestants. It would also be unfortunate if Protestants would make blanket statements against all Orthodox.
I will continue to observe each Sacrament (that is all 7).
In Christ all Christians are part of the Body. As I study Orthodoxy I pray that I continue to see the richness that is there above any negative that may be expressed by any one individual that is a part of Orthodoxy. If I make my judgments on an individual's outburst, I would turn away. But thanks be to God, that the Holy Spirit continues to lead me in this journey.
Michae_Thomas, I pray that God will richly bless your day today!
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you." (John 14:26)
I hope that helps.
LMary
It explains that God sent Jesus. I knew that but it helps understand it more.
[move]Tenoosht[/move]
Forgiveness is a challenge for many Christians, but "forgive" we must. Just a moment to reflect on the importance of FORGIVENESS.
Definition: An act of pardon.
Synonyms:
Blots out: Is. 43:25
Remission: Matt. 26:28
Pardon: Is. 55:7
Remember no more: Jer. 31:34/2Chron 30:18-20
Forgiving One Another:
The measure of: Matt. 18:21-22
As God forgave us: Eph. 4:32
Restored Christian fellowship: 2 Cor. 2:7-10
Power of forgiveness: Mark 11:24-26
*The Mark 11:24-26 verses are very critical for every believer/Christian. To know that our blessings/or God forgiving us our trespasses hinges on our willingness to forgive is critical.
I have made up in my mind that being in a place of pleasing God, and walking in oneness with Him involves me being willing to forgive those who have and who ever will not act kindly toward me. Is this difficult: Absolutely! Our feelings get hurt; we experience shame; we experience rejection. But let's stop and remember what Jesus Christ endured for our salvation. He experienced all this, including experiencing crucifixion. If you have studied crucifixion, you probably already know that this was the most heinous form of punishment. However, God sent His Son to endure the cross that we may have right to the Tree of Life.
I pray that the Holy Spirit will enable you to do this, for there is something more important here than anyone's negative remarks. Remember, the person who spoke those remarks did not die for your sin.
I thank God for your love of God; your zeal to do the work of God; and your heart for reaching out to others. May the Lord continue to bless you in your God-given endeavors.
I have no problem with Protestants or many sects of it, I even have family in such churches. But please don't confuse my irritation with anger. Theologically speaking, protestant churches reject the Seven Sacraments. In your example, you redefined the meaning behind each one. (ie. Baptism, not only does it bring one into Church, it forgives sins; Eucharist, is not only some emotional or mental feeling of Jesus, but the bread is no longer bread, but Jesus.) Again, you haven't stated which sect you belong to, but I would assume it is most likely non-denominationalism.
Unfortunately your assumption is incorrect. I do not fellowship in a non-denominational church. However, for the sake of fellowship, I will let this dialogue end. I have stated my practices regarding the Sacraments. If you choose to believe something else, then please feel free to do so. I am still going to love the Lord my God with all my heart, mind, soul and strength, and I am going to "love my neighbor as I love myself."
Because of the call of God upon my life within the ministry of the local church, I will continue practicing the Sacraments of:
Water Baptism (immersion)
Charismation (or the laying on of hands to receive the
Holy Spirit)
Eucharist (receiving the Body & Blood of Jesus
Christ)
Repentance (in the Protestant tradition confession
is usually done personally between the individual
and God; though there are times when confession
is done between the individual and the ordained
elder/pastor/bishop of the church)
Priesthood (Ordination - Bishop/Elder/Pastor/Deacon &
Deaconess)
Matrimony
Unction
I thank God for the understanding that we have in the practice of the Sacraments. God's grace has been gracious to us in our walk with Christ, and as He continues to give deeper revelation of these truths, we will walk in them to the glory of God.
God's peace be with you.
Elder H. Kelley
Don't be ashamed of your religion though, if you are, maybe its time to move on.
Your not letting your true colors show are you?
"Let us love one another".Hate produces nothing!
Your not letting your true colors show are you?
"Let us love one another".Hate produces nothing!
Whats your problem franklin? Does "God Bless You too" mean I hate him according to your logic?
No, its your abrasive attitude towards a very nice lady that I find offensive! I think she deserves some respect!
Take it easy bud, she's not here to start a fight, so dont turn it into one.
Peace
I didn't disrespect anyone. You just find my attitude "abrasive" because I don't find Bush to be a saint and I am patriotic enough to say it.
HKelly,
If I was in anyway disrespectful, I apologize, but I must stress that there are theological differences between most protestant sects and Traditional Christian Churches. Now, I'll admit, I don't know the details of your denomination, as you haven't mentioned it. But, it isn't the same as the Traditional Churches, otherwise you'd be Traditional. Anyway, God Bless you.
I dont mind what you say about Bush or what you think of me.Im glad you speak your mind!I just didnt like your attitude towards Hkelly.It seemed you were trying to pick on her a little bit.If I was mistaken,then I apologize.Im glad to see you show respect to the nice christian lady!
Awaiting Mike's article on "Masks". I feel it is going to be insightful for such a time as this.
Will be tied up this week-end in preparation for Sunday. I am believing for God's peace, grace and blessings be with each of you.