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Albair's Teaching & HCOC.
Hi All,
I was wondering of what you think about Albair's Teachings of Hymns. I sometimes find his teaching a bit different than other common cantors.
I was wondering of what you think about Albair's Teachings of Hymns. I sometimes find his teaching a bit different than other common cantors.
Comments
Hi All,
I was wondering of what you think about Albair's Teachings of Hymns. I sometimes find his teaching a bit different than other common cantors.
hehe...because they are different. They always say they follow M Mikhail but i fail to see that in there hymns....but that is just me.....(and not Tony and gonna jump on what i just said..and a couple of other HCOC lovers on the forum)
They are still good hymn classes for general. Also he is a good researcher so he does provide a lot of information about the hymns.
I AM a student of Albair's and I had many alhan teachers before and I can say
that he is a very good teacher at least for me. (Again, who am I to judge)
I can say that one of the reasons that his recordings might sound different is maybe because
you are comparing it with Cantor Ibrahim Ayad's recordings.
"C.I.A" tends to play with the hymn a little which can and does cause confusions.
Albair is imperative to teaching to right hymn, because many cantors play with the hymn.
That might be the reason that his recordings sound different.
Hope this helps.
I don't mind asking him any hymn questions for you.
God bless and Pray for me,
Cyril
I disagree. Judging by what I listened from his productions (which is something I had enough of saying I disapprove of, but you may not know this) he actually plays with certain parts of the tunes like no other. Yes, cantor Ibrahim does, and spoils many hymns (and actually he records hymns wrong and then re-records them the right way [refer to seven tunes of Nativity, and joyful Pauline). Albair does have some strange notes (= hazzat) and teaches them that way, but you may argue that he is the closest one to cantor Ibrahim and not to the HICS, which may sound so strange to you, especially that Albair prides himself on not following cantor Ibrahim's teachings. And please tell me why are all the hymns that were lost (or becoming rare) being re-recorded by HCOC on the [coptic]pipneuma[/coptic] tune, e.g. Thomas' Sunday hymns, and [coptic]va nitenh[/coptic]?
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Hi all,
I AM a student of Albair's and I had many alhan teachers before and I can say
that he is a very good teacher at least for me. (Again, who am I to judge)
I can say that one of the reasons that his recordings might sound different is maybe because
you are comparing it with Cantor Ibrahim Ayad's recordings.
"C.I.A" tends to play with the hymn a little which can and does cause confusions.
Albair is imperative to teaching to right hymn, because many cantors play with the hymn.
That might be the reason that his recordings sound different.
hehe......for as much as he doesn't play with the hymns, sometimes he misses some hazzat. Also the fact that he/(you guys) do all hymns in Greco-Bohairic coptic is bad enough in singing the hymns and changing them to fit that dialect. I have to say, that's the most thing that this why his teachings sound different.
compare him to m. Sadek, m Farag and M Tawfik--people who didn't have the voice to play around with hymns.
I think he is wonderful from the point of researching and handing down the actual hymns but I do think that there needs to be a bit more spirituality and contemplation on the hymns when they are handed down. Not just him but many cantors nowadays neglect this. If you know any that pay attention to this, let me know who they are!
i like m Gad ones really. That's if i do sit down and choose to learn a hymn......i havn't done that for a couple of years now.
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Father Peter
So who teaches the hymns correctly and according to the proper Coptic pronounciation?
Father Peter
well.....i can't say it's am "improper" pronunciation...but it's just not the dialect that was used to hand down the hymns....atleast we don't think so.
I don't blame Albair really....i think he is doing that only because his supporters back in egypt are. Anba Rafael began a movement towards alhan--began to do alhan conventions, bringing many of the cantors to teach--including mGad, MZaher, MIbrahim, MElia and a couple more that became famous from teaching in those conventions.... the conventions are in fact successful...it's just that what is taught there is Greco-bohairic.
Father Peter
The move to draw Coptic nearer to modern Greek started in the 1850's and the earliest recordings of hymns were not until the 1900's when the damage had already been done. That novel dialect started to be taught in the newly established HICS (Higher Institute of Coptic Studies), and obviously the cantors who were brought to serve there were advised of following such, but you can see that even the recordings differ according to the age they are recorded, and because the HCOC is very new it is much much different. The question now arises: how come, when it should have been the same dialect since the 1850's? Evolution? The answer is "no". Lack of studying, and casuistry allows every body to say anything about the language and still be true!!!
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Spot on Mina... two points: cantor Gad, and Greco-Bohairic adopted by HCOC. SPOT-ON yabny... meya meya
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
I know a couple of people who met M Gad and spoke to him about this.......he said the tune and way of the hymn is a priority when singing.
btw, Even IBrahim Ayad does that now (atleast most of the time). That why we don't have he Kiahk Vespers set online....
So what was the traditional means of passing on the knowledge of hymns before there were conventions and CDs and mp3s etc?
Father Peter
Verbal only
[coptic]oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
Surely the most important aspect is to understand and internalise the text so much that it becomes an expression of a person's spirituality, so that even a technically poor cantor can offer a spiritual gift to the Lord? A godless man could be technically accurate in hymnody or any other aspect of service but it would not make him a good servant.
The tune is necessary to the hymn of course, but I don't necessarily agree it is the most important aspect of hymnody. Likewise a priest might be quiet, and falter in the liturgy, even break down in tears, but would that be a bad thing if he were a spiritual man? I know a Coptic priest who weeps in the liturgy and his voice falters, but I would rather stand beside him at the altar than be technically proficient myself and lack his spirituality?
Yes? No?
Father Peter
But why would the tune be the priority in Orthodox hymnody?
Surely the most important aspect is to understand and internalise the text so much that it becomes an expression of a person's spirituality, so that even a technically poor cantor can offer a spiritual gift to the Lord? A godless man could be technically accurate in hymnody or any other aspect of service but it would not make him a good servant.
The tune is necessary to the hymn of course, but I don't necessarily agree it is the most important aspect of hymnody. Likewise a priest might be quiet, and falter in the liturgy, even break down in tears, but would that be a bad thing if he were a spiritual man? I know a Coptic priest who weeps in the liturgy and his voice falters, but I would rather stand beside him at the altar than be technically proficient myself and lack his spirituality?
Yes? No?
well yes and no. it's not a matter of a different languages but different dialects of coptic. the text is there, no one can change that. but when singing, words tend to change a little.
But why would the tune be the priority in Orthodox hymnody?
Surely the most important aspect is to understand and internalise the text so much that it becomes an expression of a person's spirituality, so that even a technically poor cantor can offer a spiritual gift to the Lord? A godless man could be technically accurate in hymnody or any other aspect of service but it would not make him a good servant.
The tune is necessary to the hymn of course, but I don't necessarily agree it is the most important aspect of hymnody. Likewise a priest might be quiet, and falter in the liturgy, even break down in tears, but would that be a bad thing if he were a spiritual man? I know a Coptic priest who weeps in the liturgy and his voice falters, but I would rather stand beside him at the altar than be technically proficient myself and lack his spirituality?
Yes? No?
Father Peter
I definitely agree with what you are saying father, however, the tune is what magnifies the words. In the end for spirituality and relationship with God, the tune is not what brings us to salvation. But as ophadece has said in previous threads, how the tunes are said in coptic, are meant specifically for the word that "tune" is placed on. So in essence what M. Gad said is true, the tune is one of the most important things when it comes to hymnology.
God Bless and Pray for me and my weakness
I may not necessarily enjoy all of Albair's recording myself BUT i have a great great great deal of respect for him and the work he is doing for his Church. The real thing we should take from Albair (regardless of his hymn 'quality') is that if we all did as much for our Church (with our individual talents) as he does for his Church, we would be a much stronger flock.
Pray for me
you took the words right out of my mouth! Bless you!
The least of all,
you took the words right out of my mouth! Bless you!
wow....not that i don't agree...but i just expected more of you tony ;D ;D ;D
I may not necessarily enjoy all of Albair's recording myself BUT i have a great great great deal of respect for him and the work he is doing for his Church. The real thing we should take from Albair (regardless of his hymn 'quality') is that if we all did as much for our Church (with our individual talents) as he does for his Church, we would be a much stronger flock.
I can't agree more
[coptic]`n]sjemjom an `nta]ma] `nhouo
oujai qen `P[C[/coptic]
God bless, Pray for me,
Cyril