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HELP, defending faith in school religious debate
We are watching this movie in World Religions class, and there will be a debate on it tomorrow...... but i cant use the bible as a source!
Most people believe all this!!! I dont want to lose this debate..... how do i refute this without the bible?
Most people believe all this!!! I dont want to lose this debate..... how do i refute this without the bible?
Comments
and the video talks about him having brothers.... it is insane! but people believe it!
Our Lord may have had half-brothers, so what. Half-brothers are not the same as blood brothers, but they are still referred to as "brother". Joseph, the elder, may have had other children from a previous marriage, but they were not fathered from the Virgin Mary. In the Middle East, and in that time frame, close relations would call out to each other as brother, sister, father and mother.
In Genesis, Abraham speaks to Lot, his nephew with the word "brother".
Westerners are not going to get this nuance because it is not part of their culture or history. It was common place in Biblical times.
apparently there was a tomb in jeruslaem where they found inscriptions of Jesus son of Joseph, and mary
and the video talks about him having brothers.... it is insane! but people believe it!
hmmmmm
you should search the statistics of how famous is the names MARY, Joseph and Jesus (yasho'--close to Joshua btw. in arabic yasho' and Yaso'....actualy in coptic they are really close to).....in the Jewish community...especially at those times.
Is that like the name Mina is now?
i would expect it to be..........but also far more famous; Jews were in many other places outside Jerusalem by that time
read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lost_Tomb_of_Jesus
You can use some info present in these resources:
Non Biblical proof for Jesus Christ (4 parts)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrRQqYGf4O0
and
Discovery Channel, tomb of Jesus?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxtioL7fCIg
and
The Case for Christ, by Lee Strobel (7 parts)
http://www.youtube.com/user/MauricioPerez1969#g/c/871F78EA970198F8
There was a lot of criticism on this documentary you'll be debating in class and many proved its errors (and many Christians used the Bible tho), search in YouTube because i cannot have these links right now. I think at least one of our COC Bishops commented on it too.
GBU
I just watched something that said the name on the coffin was jeshua (yeshua), meaning either Joshua or Jesus. This video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziaoNA25niM&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL should be adequate.
It also works off of many assumptions. Since "Jesha" and Mariamene were "unrelated," the filmmakers assumed they were married and had a son named Judah (from the ossuary "Judah, son of Jeshua"), though it can't be definitively proved. Also as for "Jesha" not being related to Mariamene, the DNA used is Mitrchondial DNA which can only be passed from mother to Child, so Jeshua could be Mariamene's Father and they'd be according to testing "not related" Furthermore, Bar-Ilan University Prof. Amos Kloner indicated that "Jesus son of Joseph" inscriptions had been found on several other ossuaries over the years.
Forgive any mistakes I make, as I could very well be wrong
Please pray for me,
Anba Bola
You'll find important info within the YouTube links I've posted, plus the fact that the church of the Resurrection in Jerusalem is actually built at the site of the Holy Sepulcher, i.e. the site of the real Tomb of Jesus Christ and this was known since 20 centuries. You'll also find many of its inside and outside pictures if you Google it. Good luck!
GBU
It doesn't take a genius to see the fault in that logic. Dr. Andrey Feuerverger says, "The role of statistics here is primarily to attempt to assess the odds of an equally (or more) 'compelling' cluster of names arising purely by chance under certain random sampling assumptions and under certain historical assumptions." Which is to say, the only thing the above statistic really means is that one in every six hundred first century Jewish tombs will have those names together. How many Jewish tombs do you reckon there are in all of the Middle East? Many, many more than 600 I'm sure! That means that there are probably many, many more tombs out there with exactly the same configuration of names.
That's why almost every historian and archaeologist who values his reputation has stated that the argument of the documentary is completely illogical - the wiki article posted by Minagir above has a whole section dedicated to the criticism of the documentary given by reputable archaeologists: The American Archaeological Institute: No need to refer to the Bible at all - publicity stunts like this fall over by themselves, and sensible scholars will quickly come out and condemn them.
[quote author=John_S2000 link=topic=10004.msg122304#msg122304 date=1289872720]
If possible try not to discuss this without the Bible because it's like putting you in a confrontation almost helpless with your hands tied. In the Gospels there are eye witness accounts of the Lord's Glorious Resurrection with Him appearing to the Mary, the Apostles, the Disciples of Emmaeus and to more than 500 brothers at the same time, and later His Ascension, i.e. Our Lord left no bones it's impossible!. It's like wrongly claiming He was neither crucified nor resuscitated, you should use the Bible as your reference.
I disagree - things like the Lost Tomb of Jesus can be discredited on their own logical faults, there's no need to refer to the Bible at all. We live in a skeptical world, and as such we must always use outside sources to test and examine the Bible's account - a book which testifies to its own authenticity is not enough in today's society (and there is a lot of wisdom in that), it must be backed up by external evidence. I think it's a very wise choice by your teacher to prevent students from referring to the Bible here, because it will force you to look at corroborating evidence, something we really don't do enough of ourselves. It should be a great learning experience :)
PFM
GBU
I mean that there is wisdom in the idea of verifying the Bible's account with outside sources. That's something which Christian scholars do all the time.
Our Lord may have had half-brothers, so what. Half-brothers are not the same as blood brothers, but they are still referred to as "brother". Joseph, the elder, may have had other children from a previous marriage, but they were not fathered from the Virgin Mary.
The Coptic church isn't in agreement with this.
http://popekirillos.net/EN/books/Vstmary.pdf
the explanation starts on page 32 of the PDF (page 30 of the book itself).
OK I understand what you meant, but it works better while quoting from the Bible to confirm events to confused or weak believers. Many facts will remain material for debates as atheists and others will still work against these evidence. The problem lies more in the interpretation than the hard evidence.
abanoub2000,
Can you tell us what conclusion has your class debate reached?
I found another HC documentary with Cameron in the team: "The Exodus decoded". It seems more palatable plus a bit more scientific. Notice that it now uses many quotes from Scripture.
The Exodus Decoded
http://www.youtube.com/user/MrZunxo#g/c/0D57B6058623DCDC
These 2 documentaries are not purely science-based anyway, they are built on a lot of inferred deductions that depend on previous inferred deductions, speculations etc. However in the "Exodus decoded" I think some are real contributions to knowledge. Certainly not all these contributions have been academically proven yet: they are interesting but remain as hypotheses. I also noted the 'Lost tomb..' is against Christianity, while 'Exodus..' is more fair to Judaism. One bad thing: an inevitable ending sentence to appease the atheists.
GBU
but some people just believe everything they hear on TV
[quote author=John_S2000 link=topic=10004.msg122379#msg122379 date=1290040522]
epchois_nai_nan,
OK I understand what you meant, but it works better while quoting from the Bible to confirm events to confused or weak believers. Many facts will remain material for debates as atheists and others will still work against these evidence. The problem lies more in the interpretation than the hard evidence.
But if there is no external evidence to confirm the Bible's authenticity, why believe in it? I'm asking sincerely, not sarcastically - what reason do you have to place your faith in the Bible if you're not looking at external evidence?
GBU