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Conflicted
My life sucks, I am tired of it. Everything I believe seems to conflict with everyone. I have sworn to myself that I would believe what is true. I believe what I do because the evidence clearly supports it, and yet I receive no support in any way. I have no support at home and it seems as if people avoid me and tell me what I want to hear just to appease me. I am really tired of it. I am growing a disdain for the people in the church, and I am not entirely sure anyone cares or takes me serious. I have no idea what the purpose of this post is, maybe a cry for help since nobody else I know has seemed to care.
Comments
A Psalm of David. To bring to remembrance.
1 O LORD, do not rebuke me in Your wrath,
Nor chasten me in Your hot displeasure!
2 For Your arrows pierce me deeply,
And Your hand presses me down.
3 There is no soundness in my flesh
Because of Your anger,
Nor any health in my bones
Because of my sin.
4 For my iniquities have gone over my head;
Like a heavy burden they are too heavy for me.
5 My wounds are foul and festering
Because of my foolishness.
6 I am troubled, I am bowed down greatly;
I go mourning all the day long.
7 For my loins are full of inflammation,
And there is no soundness in my flesh.
8 I am feeble and severely broken;
I groan because of the turmoil of my heart.
9 Lord, all my desire is before You;
And my sighing is not hidden from You.
10 My heart pants, my strength fails me;
As for the light of my eyes, it also has gone from me.
11 My loved ones and my friends stand aloof from my plague,
And my relatives stand afar off.
12 Those also who seek my life lay snares for me;
Those who seek my hurt speak of destruction,
And plan deception all the day long.
13 But I, like a deaf man, do not hear;
And I am like a mute who does not open his mouth.
14 Thus I am like a man who does not hear,
And in whose mouth is no response.
15 For in You, O LORD, I hope;
You will hear, O Lord my God.
16 For I said, “Hear me, lest they rejoice over me,
Lest, when my foot slips, they exalt themselves against me.”
17 For I am ready to fall,
And my sorrow is continually before me.
18 For I will declare my iniquity;
I will be in anguish over my sin.
19 But my enemies are vigorous, and they are strong;
And those who hate me wrongfully have multiplied.
20 Those also who render evil for good,
They are my adversaries, because I follow what is good.
21 Do not forsake me, O LORD;
O my God, be not far from me!
22 Make haste to help me,
O Lord, my salvation!
I always read that psalm when i feel like that. Ill pray for you and i hope u feel better :]
God loves u, cares for u, and is always with you :]
He sees that your trying to do the best you can...and that counts :]
Dont get weary in doing good..and keep the struggle of a christian life
God be with you
John, are these theological conflicts you atre having with people, or personal, or both? you don't have to explain too many details, but it may help to get a sense of the problem. praying for you.
Kind of both. I see things in the church and are unbelievably frustrated. Maybe I have a misunderstanding as to how things are supposed to work. I rely heavily on the early church fathers, but if our contemporary fathers conflict with them, who am I supposed to follow? A person at my church is atheist, I am actually quite fond of him and he is very nice, but he is the one that makes orban, HOW IS THAT ACCEPTABLE! This is what I find confusing! If I disagree with someone who conflicts with scripture or the early church fathers, I am not allowed to question this, since when do we believe in infallability? On top of all that I have NO support from my wife who seems to think that I am some sort of personal servant. What doesnt help is our Abouna who seems to, possibly inadvertantly, empower her and make her behavior worse. When he came and prayed with us at our home, I peeked up to see her rolling her eyes at him. Nobody listens to me, they just write me off as some nut because I am bi-polar. I am sick of it. I want a divorce but I am not allowed to because I "have to work it out", work what out? I dont love her, she has never stood by me and never helped me, I struggle to pay the bills and try to make her happy.
For instance the other day I worked 14 hours, came home and slept maybe 20 minutes then took her to work. I had a Dr.s Appt and they are helping me pay for my drugs and what not, so that took 3-4 hours. I came home slept 2 hours or so, which is not enough and I know this cause I work in sleep studies, and picked her up from work. We came home and she informed me that she is going somewhere and I have to take her. That means that I will take her, come home and NOT sleep because I have my son, then pick her up 3-4 hours later and be able to sleep around 10 or 11pm. I finally stood up for myself and told her no I have not had sleep, she said its not her fault so I told her to find her own ride. SHE called me selfish and I told her to go to hell then went to bed. I am done with her. The sad thing is that nobody believes me because she is so sweet to everyones stupid faces. Nobody at church even talks to me unless they have to.
This is why I am beginning to despise the coptic church.
People tend to label while in complete oblivion to what is going on right in front of them. I have heard of teenage girls, even younger than me, getting pregnant in church bathrooms while services are going on. And these are seen as great churches. And I've been chastised for questioning what I see too, as if freedom of expression does not exist on church property. People can just suck sometimes.
But it is dangerous to start to associate an organization with the its specific members (i.e, the Coptic church with the members of the church who you're often around). Your bipolar disorder and any unfair treatment you receive because of it is the cross you are carrying. God will not just judge us according to our deeds, but also according to our deeds relative to what is happening in our lives. If you have suffered more than those around you, yet stayed true to your beliefs and your God, your reward will be greater.
I guess I will just continue in defending the truth so long as I can prove it is true. It is depressing and I do not know how David or St. Athanasius did it, when they had it much MUCH worse than I do. I weep everyday, every single day, for our beloved church that many seem to not take seriously. Despite the consequences I will speak my mind.
That's a very respectable thing.
Is It alright if I ask what it is you're trying to defend? It's ok if you don't want to say it here. But I think a lot of it is cultural, almost all of it maybe. I also think that if the Coptic church had introduced to us the concept of infallibility, the church would actually be questioned more as a result. If you're as firmly convinced that your ideas are right as you appear to be, I would first see what response you will get when asking a high church authority. I'm saying only ask; you cannot be excommunicated for asking a question.
[quote author=Ioannes link=topic=9799.msg120045#msg120045 date=1285883583]Despite the consequences I will speak my mind.
That's a very respectable thing.
Is It alright if I ask what it is you're trying to defend? It's ok if you don't want to say it here. But I think a lot of it is cultural, almost all of it maybe. I also think that if the Coptic church had introduced to us the concept of infallibility, the church would actually be questioned more as a result. If you're as firmly convinced that your ideas are right as you appear to be, I would first see what response you will get when asking a high church authority. I'm saying only ask; you cannot be excommunicated for asking a question.
I do not consider it my idea per se. I defend the church against what is called the "spirit of the age" or the times whatever you want to call it. The world has quite a powerful influence and clearly it has had one on some of those in our church. Most of our leaders refer to protestants as Christian, as well as Catholic. This obviously means that our titles that we use to define ourselves mean nothing. If I can achieve the same thing by doing less, protestantism, why am I doing this, orthodoxy? Yet our leaders insist that both are Christian, and this is incorrect. Our beloved St Dioscorus, who is wrongly criticized for mistakes he did not make, did not consider the Latins Christian, so who is right?
A certain bishop claims that the apostasy or falling away will happen when the antichrist comes, this directly conflicts with 2 Thess. 2:3 which plainly states the falling away MUST COME FIRST! That is not my "idea" my friend. So I have come to the conclusion that it is alright to disagree with anyone if they are in conflict with the early church fathers, scriptures, doctrine, etc. I do not claim to be holier or smarter than anyone, in fact it is probably quite the opposite, what I am doing is merely pointing out truth and fact. I dont care what your title is, if your ideas conflict with truth, your wrong, this includes me too! But what do I know?
I understand and sometimes I over react. I always remember St. Athanasius when he said "I too am against the world."
Dang, I'm impressed... I thought I was the only one reminding myself of St. Athanasius' words when it seemed no one agreed with me.
I remember abouna saying something I loved about how when a little child accidentally breaks a glass cup in the kitchen, he becomes all worried how he's going to explain to his mother that it was an accident and that she might not believe him, etc. But God does understands. So yeah... find comfort in God. You have a point... if those churches are Christian, then why am I Orthodox? I think when those leaders refer to those churches as Christian, they don't mean necessarily having the fullness of faith... but I'm not sure.
Don't allow the devil to get you! You're important. You want to make a difference by pointing out the missed ideals in this age and you want to evangelize. This is a nice goal in life to pursue. May be the way to present it and the tone to use for this aim can be improved. I remember Jesus saying who is not against Him is still with Him. I am replying quickly now (i'll edit later for the references).
So how to gather brethren and help them without also conveying a damaging repulsive effect we may inadvertently communicate? It seems a difficult task without first attacking others. Do we always have to attack or hurt? Since nobody's perfect I believe it is better to start by gaining their confidence through showing their good sides (from whom we may also learn useful things). This is very apparent from our own reaction when someone is criticizing us: we may react in so many ways. I have learned to try harder to chose a more peaceful approach - unless it is an real emergency. And we must remember that the Lord watches and helps, like we both said elsewhere that nothing can be achieved without His blessing and His guidance to us and to others.
I've read in Acts that there were among the first Christians some people who were not even aware of the fact that the Holy Spirit exists (can you imagine) then some disciples coming by their area without raising any problem they taught them the fullness of truth and this unexpected situation was thus corrected.
Raw truth should not be a problem, but it can be presented in a more diplomatic way to suit the higher goal and to impress positively, not to give the slightest feeling of disdain or convey disrespect, it's not like one's defending his faith in a critical emergency.
Also I am talking about myself: I used to attack others without making it very clear I am attacking their ideas not the persons themselves. At other situations sometimes my own hidden guilt and my weaknesses were fueling my wrong approach at being mad at others. Since the good will is present and the goal is excellent, it is then considered as a simple problem of communication so it could be easily resolved by really making just a few voluntary tweaks in our approach and stick to that. You have no idea how their reaction becomes a marvelous one much beyond expectation when there is some trust built-up.
Let's suppose we're a sales person and like to sell something at their door, it won't work if we're not using well trained presentation skills to gain their confidence and raise their interest, otherwise we can't force them to buy the product regardless of it being an excellent one. Somehow I've been there with much frustration, and I've blamed God and my wife for lack of support till I understood and tried various other better ways. We have to show respect to others when we remember they deserve that: they like us are also in the image of God. This is true even if we know they hate us.
GBU
What is so hard is that I know I am nothing compared to any Orthodox, I am weak and feeble. So when I see a conflict I go over it a thousand times to make sure I am not seeing it wrong, and when what I see is not wrong, it makes me sad.
I just weep. I rely on our early church fathers, and judging by their writings they would not agree on many things that are happening, but I know that according to Christ's words in Mt 16:18, His church will not be overcome and if indeed what I adhere to is correct then I should continue and will be allowed to continue. Not that I am some kind of saint or anything, quite the opposite, I am just pointing at the truth none of it is from me.
Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't it possible to have the partial truth. For example when you are taking a test, you can get a 70% which doesn't mean you got a 0%. It is obviously superior though to have a 100% (orthodoxy). In my opinion that is how Protestants have the partial truth, because they have the most important thing, being the creed.
Using the "logic" that because you might not agree with some people or things then your not Orthodox is silly. As I explained we can disagree on certain things that are not doctrine, say the apostasy. We know this will happen but apparently it is debatable as to the timing of this, if this makes you un-orthodox by disagreeing then that is silly, atleast by your standards.
You clearly miss the point. If we accept protestants as Christians we validate their heretical doctrines. They believe in Christ, so what? They believe what they want Christianity to be and not what it is, thats a fact. The two pillars of protestantism are man made, anti-scriptural, against Orthodox doctrine, and downright dangerous both physically and spiritually. The wonderful thing about Catholicism is that it has been around long enough for us to have writings of the early church fathers to prove that it is unacceptable to rub shoulders with them.
Read the letters of Leo I to Theodoret of Cyprus, in support of him. Theodoret is a nestorian heretic who wrote against St. Cyril and never recanted his views. Because of his support for Theodoret St. Dioscorus rightly excommunicated Leo I, who oddly enough was the first to believe and preach papal primacy also according to what is left of his sermons as a deacon. Leo I being jealous of Alexandria sought to oust them from power and forced the council to let Theodoret into the council, needless to say Leo I won. After he ousted St. Dioscorus, he wrote a letter to Theodoret congratulating him on their win and calling St. Dioscorous evil for challenging the bishops, and even the bishop of Rome!
Leo I is a terrible individual who cared more about power than anything. St. Dioscorus, no matter who mistakenly says, did the right thing. He knew what was happening and knew that the Latins had gone awry. There can and will be no concession. We must draw the lines and keep away from heresy. Satan has been perfecting his craft over the years, and his final one is to mask heresy as Christian, and so far he is doing a very good job in tricking people, unfortunately.
But what do I know? I am just a stupid reader Deacon with a big mouth.
I also would like to clarify my statement about the partial truth. By what I said I meant doctrine and not things outside of it. I'm sure I'm not doctrinally correct in everything, though I certainly wish to be. Wouldn't a Protestant who want's to know the full truth be considered a Christian?
I'd also like to thank you for discussing this as it widens my knowledge, and I ask that you forgive me for anything incorrect I say, because I know very little and am prone to errors regarding our faith.
Dearest fellow brothers and sisters in Christ,
I wish to address some of the concerns that have arisen in this particular thread. This post is not only directed towards Ioannes, but towards all of us who wish to grow in the faith, to serve God and His beloved creation, and to defend the faith in an appropriate manner. We should all find ourselves attempting to travel, if not already travelling, along this road to our Lord, desiring to function as instruments which Christ may use in His works, by which He determines the best and proper manner, and to which manner we should submit with love and obedience.
It is necessary that we first acknowledge a point that will arise time and time again for whoever it may be that wishes to serve God: "am I to be discouraged when I do not see the fruits of my labor? Has God abandoned me in my works? Are my works not sanctified by the Lord, and thus not yielding the result which I desire to see?" By what means do I judge the success of a particular service? Is it when I become a popular servant, one in whom people find me to be most agreeable to their own opinions?
Let us look particularly at Galatians 1:10: "For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ." It is evident that, if we search for our approval amongst our fellow man, we may in fact not be serving our Lord. The road of service is both an arduous one, but also a delicate one; it is arduous in the sense that, by enacting my service with a loving heart, I will see that there are those around me who refuse the service, those who will belittle my own service, and will attempt to draw me away from accomplishing this service. It is God whom I serve, and God within His people which I serve; this is the best interest of the people as it is viewed in a Christian-like manner. What is best for man is not always what man desires. We spend much of our lives trying to reconcile this, particularly when we begin to suffer; it is at this time that we should indeed be turning towards God, not away from Him, as though He had abandoned us.
Examine the following verse: "In my distress I cried unto the LORD, and he heard me. Deliver my soul, O LORD, from lying lips, and from a deceitful tongue" (Psalm 119:1-2). This is noted to be a Psalm of ascent, one of a number of psalms which would be recited by the Jews who journeyed to the Temple of Solomon, and climbed up the mountain to reach the Temple, and ultimately, the altar. In our own lives, it is a psalm that firstly reminds us that, in the past, there has been a time when we have asked for the Lord's assistance in our lives, His guiding hand to lead us throughout the way into His kingdom, and that He has answered this call before. As a result of His answering this call, we are encouraged to continuously go to Him and ask Him for His guiding hand in the many struggles that we face in our lives. Say, for example, that we are in need of some small assistance from someone, a person who we do not know very well, and a friend encourages us to go to seek help from this particular individual. Our first response is that "this person will not assist me, but I will try nonetheless." In going to this person and asking for their assistance, we find that they provide it not only willingly but lovingly! In the future, when I am in need of something bigger, I will not hesitate to turn to this individual, as I know that he has assisted me in the past. In the first verse of this Psalm, we find this. It is a means of encouragement; it is a call to God as we begin our journey towards Him, a journey filled with trials and tribulations, but a journey which will lead us in our eternal ascent towards Him. We have cried out to Him, and He has helped us before. So, too, will He continue to help us; we need only to remind ourselves of this as a means of encouraging ourselves.
The second verse in this Psalm addresses lips that lie, and a deceitful tongue. Deceitful in what sense? They are tongues of flattery, tongues which strive to make us feel as though what it is that we have accomplished is good and proper, leading us into pride. Do I look for approval of my service in the eyes of others? Even if the words themselves that are being said are true, this is not to be accepted... we, as weak human beings, thrive on the complimentary words of others. Our hearts rejoice when we find that our works find the approval of those around us. Mark 12:13-15: "And they send unto him certain of the Pharisees and of the Herodians, to catch him in his words. And when they were come, they say unto him, Master, we know that thou art true, and carest for no man: for thou regardest not the person of men, but teachest the way of God in truth: Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not? Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it." See the words that they preface their question with! With wrong intentions, they still utter truth, though they know it not; it is their heart that is found to be attempting to lead Christ into a mistake with which they could accuse Him. How beneficial can these good words be, even if they are true, to us? Is this what we seek in our service? It is a strong temptation that almost of us are subject to.
With that said, it is important that we are able to acknowledge when it is appropriate for us to complete a service, when our actions find favor in God. In the book of the Wisdom of Sirach (Ecclesiasticus), the following is said: "There is one that keepeth silence, and is found wise: and another by much babbling becometh hateful. Some man holdeth his tongue, because he hath not to answer: and some keepeth silence, knowing his time. A wise man will hold his tongue till he see opportunity: but a babbler and a fool will regard no time. He that useth many words shall be abhorred; and he that taketh to himself authority therein shall be hated" (Wisdom of Sirach 19:5-8). We may very well find that our intentions are good and our words are correct, but are they presented in the most opportune of times? Indeed, we may function as bulldozers, wishing to decimate all that we find wrong that is around us; we may find that there are things that are occurring both inside and outside of our Churches that we do not agree with, that do not conform to our understanding of what Orthodoxy is. Is it my obligation to shout at the top of my lungs that heresy occurs, that what is being said or done is wrong, and that my way is correct? Do we ever find ourselves knowing what is correct, but keeping silence, knowing our time? Do we hold our tongues until we see the proper opportunity? More importantly, do we find that in completing our actions which take the form of righteousness and truth, we are pushing people away from Truth and away from Orthodoxy? This is the mark of a man who has wisdom; this is when we know when to fight, when not to fight, and what is worth fighting for at a given time. Though our intent may be good, perhaps the time to fulfill our actions is not the best, and we find that rather than uttering to others words of love, we utter words of babbling that become hateful.
We indeed have much to consider in our lives in the service, in our wanting to do what is right and proper, but there is a strategy in doing so. We do not look towards the words of praise nor towards the criticisms of others as our means of determining the fruits of our actions. Let us attempt to glean some wisdom from the words of St. Macarius the Great:
"A brother once came to the abbot Macarius and said to him, "Master, speak some word of exhortation to me, that, obeying it, I may be saved." St. Macarius answered him, "Go to the tombs and attack the dead with insults." The brother wondered at the word. Nevertheless he went, as he was bidden, and cast stones at the tombs, railing upon the dead. Then returning, he told what he had done. Macarius asked him, "Did the dead notice what you did?" And he replied, "They did not notice me."
"Go, then, again," said Macarius, "and this time praise them." The brother, wondering yet more, went and praised the dead, calling them just men, apostles, saints. Returning, he told what he had done, saying, "I have praised the dead."
Macarius asked him, "Did they reply to you?" And he said, "They did not reply to me." Then said Macarius, "You know what insults you have heaped on them and with what praises you have flattered them, and yet they never spoke to you. If you desire salvation, you must be like these dead. You must think nothing of the wrongs men do to you, nor of the praises they offer you. Be like the dead. Thus you may be saved.""
May we be reminded of the times that God has come to our assistance in the past, may we not be discouraged by the words of criticism of others, nor their praise, may we defend the faith in a wise manner, relying on our fathers of confession and spiritual guides and resting our lives in obedience to them, and may the Glory be to our Loving God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, now and at all times, and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
childoforthodoxy
This obviously means that our titles that we use to define ourselves mean nothing. If I can achieve the same thing by doing less, protestantism, why am I doing this, orthodoxy?
On a side note in relation to that quote, remember the parable of the laborers who came at the 11th hour (Matthew 20:1-16). You should be choosing orthodoxy because you love it and all it has to offer, for no one knows whether or not orthodoxy is the only route to salvation
Anyways, with your main question. I can see you have good motives, but be careful, because often when we think we are the most right, we could not be further from the truth. Many wise men in history have fallen away from holding on to an opposing view. Take Origen, for example, who started out a great blessing to the faith, but ended up making heretical claims and it all started in downward spiral. When you wish to approach someone with a differing view, always pray beforehand and ask yourself if there is a chance - however small it may be - that you may be mistaken, especially when a higher order religious figure is making the claim. There is a reason God has called them to their position. If the priest in his wisdom has decided someone atheist can make the orban and you disagree with him, approach him nonconfrontationally and present your case softly. Ask him "Abouna, I noticed so and so and I was wondering if this is ok" etc. If he explains why it is so, then leave it. It is no longer in your hands. If the priest is actually incorrect, then God will judge him on it and it will be his burden, not yours because you did your part. This obedience, humility, and respect to higher church members is a crucial part of the orthodox faith. God has given them spiritual wisdom and you may not be seeing the big picture. There is a story of Tamav Irene seeing a vision of a special place of suffering for all the nuns who judged their elders.
With regards to your wife, remember Christ in His sufferings. He loved and sacrificed Himself for the church, and you likewise should do the same for your wife. Even when the people spat on Him and cursed Him, He still loved and served. Regardless of how your wife treats you, you should love her. And in seeing your love for her, she will likely return the love. If you are still having trouble, you may wish to seek marriage counseling in the church.
God bless you and keep you. You have the potential to do great things, but before greatness always comes humility
I don't mean to validate Protestantism as Christian, but rather Protestants as Christian. I don't know if you can say that the beliefs of Protestantism are Christian, but I know you can say that there are Protestant's who are Christian. There are many Protestant's who are very righteous and have a great zeal for God.
I also would like to clarify my statement about the partial truth. By what I said I meant doctrine and not things outside of it. I'm sure I'm not doctrinally correct in everything, though I certainly wish to be. Wouldn't a Protestant who want's to know the full truth be considered a Christian?
I'd also like to thank you for discussing this as it widens my knowledge, and I ask that you forgive me for anything incorrect I say, because I know very little and am prone to errors regarding our faith.
Just out of curiosity, would you say the same thing of Arians or Nestorians? They too are zealous and very righteous.
Servant33, I am not doing this or saying this because I am "the most right". The one thing I carried from being a scientific atheist to my conversion is an evidence based thinking. The evidence clearly shows Orthodoxy is the true church spoken of in Acts and the one Christ speaks of in Mt 16:18, that my friend is a fact of life. You cannot just create a church and say you are Christian. In fact, once again, Christ's very words disagree with your statements, in Mt. 7:22 "Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? And cast out demons in your name? And done many wonderful works in your name? And then I will profess unto them, I never knew you, depart from me you workers of lawlessness." No doubt this could refer to unfaithful Orthodox, but the key word here is lawlessness, or iniquity. The context of the verse clearly shows that these people who came to Christ did many miracles in His name, yet worked outside of the law. This means they used the power of Christ's name without His authority, like having a gun, which gives you power, and then proclaiming to be a police officer. So what Christ is saying is that these people obviously consider themselves Christian and do many wonderful things, but have chosen to operate upon their own personal authority as opposed to Christ's on earth, His church.
Is that clear enough? Or should I continue to put you all to shame for your foolishness? If protestants and their beliefs are Christian then you must accept all who consider themselves Christian, where is the line drawn.
I'd also like to mention that Protestants believe in the same creed as us unlike arians and nestorians. But that is the exact situation Protestant's are in. I think they know the truth to 50% of the questions. They have the truth to 50% while the others they don't.
I'd also like to tell you that while I was at a Christian Club at school, the only ones there where Protestant (at least I think). While I was there rather than condemn them all, and say I can't sit with you, I spoke up alot (Most of what I said I read or heard from sermons), and they really liked what I said, and even told me to speak up more. At the end they asked me what Church I went to, and I told them to an Orthodox Church. I feel like after getting a taste of Orthodox teaching (I just relayed what I'd read), they were in love with the Spirituality of it. If I'd went in saying they were heretics and aren't Christians, what do you think they'd think of Orthodoxy as a whole? I ask that you don't get angry at me, and allow our discussion to remain peaceful as it is. I know that discussions like this usually get heated, and I pray that this by the Grace of God doesn't.
You cannot just make a church and call it Christian. If we, who actually have authority, validate all of them then where do we stop? You make no distinction between any of them, therefore you are speaking of pentecostalism which includes Jim Jones and the peoples temple, so he is Christian and we must accept them too? This is the problem, we have authority so why are we acting as if we dont? A police officer does not let a bank robber go because they both see eye to eye on law enforcement, even though one is upholding the law and the other is breaking it. It makes no sense to say our creed if we do not believe in ONE CHURCH. Even if all protestants believe that, they still do not believe in ONE CHURCH simply because there is no one uniform protestant church. As Eph. 4:5 states "One Lord, One FAITH, One Baptism." So we also must cut this out of scripture, unless be truly believe that a disorganized group of people with vastly different beliefs adhereing to vastly different doctrines, while all believing in Christ are one united Church, the one we speak of in the creed.
It is time to wake up people. There are Christians (those who struggle the Orthodox spiritual life), and those who were baptised and dont have their heart in it or just dont care (lapsi Orthodox), there are those who want to believe and desire Christ but are not Christian because they are not baptized Orthodox (protestants and others outside the ONE Church), and there are those who just dont believe. Its fairly simple. You cannot believe protestants are Christian without compromising Orthodox doctrine, scriptures, and the early church fathers.
I ask once again that you don't get angry at me because of my feeble mind. I do understand though that I make a big overgeneralization. I'm by this talking mostly about the mainstream Protestants shuch as the Baptists and Lutherans, and not . I also wanted to ask, what is the definition of a Christian? If it is just someone who partakes of the Divine Liturgy, you could do that and have no love in you and that is no benefit to you. Ioannes how would you define what a Christian is? Is it being an image and having the mind of Christ? I've been thinking about it and haven't reached an exact definition yet.
I've also been thinking about what the point of calling someone a Christian or not a Christian is? I know there is one, but haven't found a clear answer yet. I agree completely, and as I said before I don't think I can call Protestantism Christian, but rather some of its followers. I would call those eager to turn to the full truth, but haven't been presented the opportunity (haven't heard of orthodoxy etc.), but I know that I once was a Christian in name only knowing much about Christ, but having no relation with him, not having experienced prayer in its true form, and the Liturgy for me was a sort of chore. I don't know if I looking back call myself a Christian when I was in that stage
On a side note I've read Pope Shenouda's book called Comparative Theology, and have seen the numerous faults in Protestantism, but as these discussions go on I get more confused. If someone can provide something by the church fathers about this that would be great.
In the Orthodox sense, in a short overview, it starts with repentance which means you have become faithful. This however is not it, then one would need to confess, be baptized, receive the Holy Spirit in Chrismation and faithfully receive communion. In short this is practicing the Orthodox spiritual life. What is unique here is that the Orthodox church has the authority to give the Holy Spirit after baptism, and the priests are endowed with more authority than the angels, as they can forgive the sins of others and angels cannot. We cannot call anyone a Christian, especially those who adhere to erroneous and heretical doctrines, yes a person may be striving to become Christian in the Orthodox sense, they are then Catechumens, not Christians.
If I strive to be a Judge, does that make me one? If I strive to be president, does that mean I am? Of course not, that would be silly. You must remember, I was raised in a very liberal non-Christian home, I have struggled against God for many years and finally came to the truth. Both of my parents are protestant and unfortunately, and it breaks my heart, they are not Christian. My mother especially has no desire to become Orthodox and seems to have a strong disdain for it. While my dad loves it but is bound to my mothers thinking. So do not think I am saying this for fun or because I have something wrong with me. It pains me greatly but it is true.
Protestantism is not Christian and neither are the Latins, although they can make a much better case. The eastern profess the exact same faith, but erroneously venerate a heretic in Theodoret of Cyrus, who wrote against St. Cyrils 12 chapters.
The problem with the early church fathers and protestantism is that they existed long before protestantism took shape, which should say something to the sober mind. According to Mt. 16:18 Christ's church will not be overcome, I think we all agree. But for protestant theology to work, it had to have been overcome and corrupted, as a matter of fact Luther believed this very thing. He believed that the church was overcome and that Christ's return was eminent because of that. Protestantism varies from church to church, but all have one thing in common, justification by faith alone and the bible as sole authority, both of which are heresies. If they are heresies and contradict sound Orthodox doctrine, how, tell me are they Christian? Both contradict not only Orthodox doctrine but scripture! Because of the doctrine exalting the word of God above His body, the church, many horrible things have happened in the name of protestantism. If anyone can interpret the scripture of their own accord, they then make themselves their own deacon, priest, and bishop all rolled into one. It is unrestrained interpretation based on their own personal agenda, ideology, and personal philosophy.
Tell me, how is that Christian?
I also ask that everyone read this article: http://66.132.244.15/uploads/Humility%20(English).pdf, as it has greatly helped me in the past.
While the Latins agree with us on many points there is no question that having any sort of service with them is unacceptable because we are not united and quite frankly they do have heretical doctrines. I am justified in saying this because I have checked with other clergy, such as Abouna John Paul who said there is no way our bishops should have even been doing vespers service with them. If I am not mistaken Abouna Peter said they did this very thing. The very idea that they reign supreme over all other Christians is madness and first introduced by the arch heretic Leo I, I believe Pope Pius said "I am the way, the truth, and the life" in I believe the council of trent, dont quote me verbatim on which council and I am not sure which Pius it was. This papal supremacy is a heresy, it is unacceptable, and there should be no concession because of it.
I see no need for unity when we are having difficulty in keeping our own people in our churches. I see no need to concentrate on others when we should be strengthening our own church. We have become so obsessed with unity I am beginning to think that we have become hippies. I love you Anba Bola and I cherish these discussions, I really do.
I'd also like to say that I don't mean to defend Roman Catholics or Protestants, and I definitely am not looking for unity unless they renounce all their heresies. We shouldn't compromise any of our faith, but at the same time I find it hard to say that they aren't Christians. I just don't think they have the fullness of the truth.
Today before reading my daily quiet time, I rembered this discussion and I asked God to reveal the truth. This was the passage:
In that day this song will be sung in the land of Judah: "We have a strong city; God will appoint salvation for walls and bulwarks. Open the gates, That the righteous nation which keeps the truth may enter in. You will keep him in perfect peace, Whose mind is stayed on You, Because he trusts in You. Trust in the Lord forever, For in Yah, the Lord, is everlasting strength. For He brings down those who dwell on high, The lofty city; He lays it low, He lays it low to the ground, He brings it down to the dust. The foot shall tread it down-- The feet of the poor And the steps of the needy." The way of the just is uprightness; O Most Upright, You weigh the path of the just. Yes, in the way of Your judgments, O Lord, we have waited for You; The desire of our soul is for Your name And for the remembrance of You. With my soul I have desired You in the night, Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early; For when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. Isaiah 26:1-9
I also came across this verse (James 4:17) "Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin."
I'm currently planning to read a patristic commentary on the passage.
I've found that some have made practical good edifying efforts that we may even benefit learning few good things. I'd like to mention as an example the genuine usable efforts made in the field of creationism, especially by the moderate Baptists. There are still real differences between us of course but I think we can work out or use the things that are commonly useful to everybody.
GBU
I want to hear your thoughts on the Arians and why the church is strongly opposed to them. Even better, I want to know if you want some sort of unity with the Nestorian church, which still exists? I would say they resemble us more closely than the protestants, do you defend them as zealously as you do protestantism?
A heresy is a heresy, defend it if you see fit. But if you do it here then I am going to be right there disproving it.